This Just In: Tim Kring Has No Idea How to Write a TV Show Comments (Page 2)
70 Comments
Matt Richenthal Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 7:21 PM
I'll be quite clear if I wasn't before: I'd like consistency in abilities and in plot. I don't see a great deal of difference between the two: an inconsistent ability is what leads to an inconsistent - or at least lazy, poorly written - plot because the Heroes just do anything the writers feel like to get out of situations.
Mark
February 15th, 2010 5:21 PM
@M.L. House You've changed what you said now. You wanted logic in Tracy's ability, now you're changing it to you want logic in the plot. I never said there were NO plot holes this season, earlier on there have been yes, but I've been defending this episode's plot holes.
I can also see where you're coming from, the fact that, in universe, why would he build up all these connections (especially with Peter) just to win back the girl of his dreams. Now, my theory on this is, he needed all the specials to help create that woodland cottage thing, and then once he said yes, Peter or whoever, would then take over his brother's role as an empath and leader of the carnival, taking over the carnival and looking after Samuel's family.
If you read my post above carefully, I've pointed out that the town Samuel sunk was quite close to the carnival. That's how he sunk it.
If you want to continuously put out negative reviews then so be it. But there are good things mixed in with the bad on th
Matt Richenthal Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 4:26 PM
@mark: You're totally missing the point. The point of the Vanessa question is this: Nothing that was built up until then made any sense or mattered one bit. Of course the writers knew she would say no -- but did Samuel know that? THAT's the problem right there. He took all these actions, like implanting the compass on Peter, for what reason? A season is supposed to actually make sense when you look back on it. Again, in your defense, you cite my EXACT point:
The writers wrote episodes without thinking ahead and then tried to make sense of what they had written AFTER the fact. But intelligent viewers can see right through that and realize that it's being written on the fly.
I'm still waiting on your explanation, too, as to how Samuel sunk a town without any specials around him.
Do you honestly believe a sci-fi show can make up anything as it goes? You seem like a relatively smart person. Can you really not understand the idea that fans can suspend disbelief for the concept of a sho
Maj
February 15th, 2010 3:56 PM
You know what M.L House I agree with you. Thats just a Crazy ass thought...What if Vanessa Said "YES Samuel lets live happily ever after. Would that been the end of the season???" WTF. Vanessa was the WORST THING they brought in to even contribute to Samuels PLOT.
Mark
February 15th, 2010 3:18 PM
@M.L. House
A reviewer is meant to take a step back and take a look at something from an unbiased standpoint. If there are negatives, then yes, point them out, but you're also supposed to point out the positives.
Claire and Noah were wet btw. And the carnival was near the town, you saw Lydia look out towards the town.
"I'd love to be positive if there was an ounce of logic". It's a sci-fi show. Because season 1 had total logic, flying, invisibility. It's meant to be like that.
And your fav question, do you really think that the writers were still on edge as to whether or not she would choose him? They knew that she wasn't going to choose him.
I think you misunderstand when they say that they don't plan it out. They plan out the grand scheme of things, how the characters start off, the storylines for each and the finish of the storylines. It's what happens in the individual episodes that they don't plan out.
And as for the compass, it did come in useful when Lydia
Matt Richenthal Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 3:05 PM
Here's one of my favorite questions to ask regarding the season:
What would have happened if Samuel's ex-girlfriend said she wanted to be with him?
The writers clearly hadn't actually thought out Samuel's grand plan. They had him yammering about this and that, recruiting Heroes for no actual purpose and then decided around episode 15: a-ha! We can have his ex not wanna get back together with him and that will set him off! Who cares that he gave Peter a compass tattoo weeks and weeks ago and that was never followed through on or explained... no one will remember!
Matt Richenthal Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 3:01 PM
@mark: Why isn't it a review if it's all negative? I've written hundreds and hundreds of reviews on this site (http://www.tvfanatic.com/reviews/), please feel free to read them. I'm a very fair critic - but there is nothing redeemable about Heroes.
It is atrocious in every single way and I'm not exaggerating when I say someone that defends it such as you almost has to be a writer for the show. I admire your enthusiasm and gotta admit, you're doing your best to think of how certain things could have gone own.
But there's not a single likable character and the fact that you need to invent reasons for what COULD explain away plot holes illustrates all that's wrong with the show. (Tracy made the hole large and Claire and Noah swam through it?!? They weren't wet, and the size of the hole didn't change. Seriously, you're just concocting your own storyline here. What about Samuel? He sunk an ENTIRE town with no specials around him... and then suddenly needed to be surrounded by them?)
I'
Mark
February 15th, 2010 8:58 AM
@M.L. House
Firstly Tracy didn't turn them into soil. She basically pumped water into that hole making the hole bigger and bigger until it became a pool of water, which Claire and Noah then swam through to the surface.
Then you say no-one dies. Ok. Let's make a list. Simone. Isaac. Linderman. Elle. Bob. Arthur. Daphne. Charles. Flint. Meredith. Lydia. Arnold. Niki. Nathan. Usutu. Danko. D.L. Knox. Eden. Alejandro. Adam. Kaito. Maury. Ted. Joseph. Chandra. Candice. And these aren't all.
Sure, they're not going to kill off the main characters... why would they do that? "Hmm why don't we kill off half the cast?" It's like in Star Wars. Oh no, the millenium falcon's being chased... they might die. Hm, considering they have Han, Leia, C3P0 and Chewbacca on the ship, I doubt it.
And you can't say that 12 million people have abandoned the show. There are loads of people who don't watch it on the night, but prefer to watch it online, or record it. And I believe those are only
Sublime
February 14th, 2010 8:02 PM
I think Ali Larter's disappearing act is due to her schedules (new resident evil movie) but the production still wanted her in the season (bryan fuller) then came to a point that they don't know what to do with the character to fit the plot anymore.
Matt Richenthal Rank: Staff Member
February 14th, 2010 5:34 PM
@mark: I wanna try and sum up my, and many other people's opinions, as simply as possible:
You can't say just "oh, they have super powers, anything goes at any time!" We can suspend disbelief for the concept of a sci-fi show in general, but we still ask for storylines to make sense. I'd like to focus on one:
Tracy turned HRG and Claire into soil. That's absolutely made up on the writers' part. They put two main characters in danger - so this was a major development, not some small B story - and solved the dilemma by inventing something on the spot. Neither Tracy nor Claire nor HRG had anything resembling that ability before. This perfectly sums up the show's problems:
1. There's never an ounce of suspense b/c we KNOW no one will die.
2. To solve situations, the series literally invents abilities on the spot.
That's nothing but shoddy, lazy writing. If you wish to watch a show where there's no consistency week to week, that's your choice and the choice of about 4 million other peop
AJ
February 14th, 2010 2:05 PM
Yep, I definitely want a new season, but they need to be put at risk. As long as there is time traveling, there is no real threat to anyone. That needs to be removed in order to have any chance of a decent season 5 (as much as I like Hiro, there's no peril for anyone if he can go and rest everything).
Season 5 needs to be a war between those who wanted to stay hidden and those who wanted to be see. Claire made that decision for herself, but it will affect ALL 'specials' and in that respect, it wasn't a choice that she had the right to make. The war should be blatant, in the public eye, and cross borders.
Mark
February 13th, 2010 8:53 PM
@heroesfan I have to admit, that made me lol. You should do stand up. I'm not joking btw, I did actually laugh. :)
Honestly, Zeroes? No, I write Untold Tales. It's not the best fan fiction in the world, but hey, you'd probably like it better than the show.
heroesfan
February 13th, 2010 8:49 PM
(@Mark / Zeroes Writer)
I did turn it into 4 seasons. It was in a precognitive dream. Sylar, Peter, Claire, Rouge, Wolverine and all the other X-Men where there. We were all at a Carnival on HBO. And the guys who brings Tim Kring's coffee was there to write season 6.
And... and... you were there Mark! The smartest man in the world, holding a shovel!
Wait for it...
Wait...
"To fill in the potholes!"
Mark
February 13th, 2010 6:20 PM
@heroesfan
yeah, let's see how you can turn that into 4 seasons
heroesfan
February 13th, 2010 6:19 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) I just did better. Let me replay it...
You know when I called you that inexcusable word...
hold for it...
hold...
"Heroes Writer"
P.S. Heroes writing was great when it was the X-Men and Carnivale.
Mark
February 13th, 2010 5:47 PM
@heroesfan
ps. I just love the irony of your name. :)
Mark
February 13th, 2010 5:46 PM
@heroesfan see now you're just being really immature. Honestly I'd love to be a writer. Yes, their standards could be brought up a bit, and things explained a bit more, but I'll tell you now, they've done well so far haven't they. I'd like to see you do any better.
heroesfan
February 13th, 2010 5:22 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) Your logic seems to be a perfect match for Heroes writing. Also I want to explain to you that wasn't a compliment. But I must say I am truly sorry for name calling. You know when I called you that inexcusable word...
hold for it...
hold...
"Heroes Writer"
Mark
February 13th, 2010 4:51 PM
@Derek, I know what this weeks one is about (further up I was actually explaining it to "heroesfan", I was actually referring to the couple prior to this weeks, they explained where Tracy was.
But didn't Tracy say that she no longer wanted contact from Noah? Which explains her disappearance; she wants nothing to do with him. And the call from Lauren brought her back. Characters have disappeared for a while before, just look at Mohinder this season.
Mark
February 13th, 2010 4:48 PM
@heroesfan I'm surprised you think I'm a heroes writer.
heroesfan
February 13th, 2010 4:11 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) I'm glad you are proud of your work on Heroes. It's totally original and seamless, or as Tim Kring says in the interview "We’ll take an idea from the guy who gets our coffee, you know?" I see major plot-holes. So we agree to disagree.
Peace.
pei
February 13th, 2010 3:08 PM
i think its lost its track, there is no point in insulting or being aggresive, Tim Kring should just finish this up, take his holidays and then return with a good tv show...doesnt have to be related to heroes but it could.
Ah! There is still juice in the super heroes stuff...but not with these characters:
Sylar who´s character cant be read and one cant feel him real, same goes to the cheerleader, hiro, suresh and all except Peter.
The viewer somehow expects the classic lame ending of "all this was a dream" with the way the story is developing. Characters went in a loop and the only one to be saved, the only one who actually "evolves" from episode to episode is Peter.
This boy, Peter, is the only one who got better with time...and it wasnt that his acting was bad in the first place, just the story pictured him as an overpowered hero with zero will to use them and now is the only one that feels real.
BTW, i kinda get the feeling that the heroes world isnt real anymore as
Derek
February 13th, 2010 1:57 PM
(I was referring to a different comment you made above.) And, really, Tracy vanished from the plot entirely. She went from an important character to disappearing, only to randomly reappear on the show to save HRG and Claire and vanish again. To someone who wasn't reading the graphic novels, it all would seem quite odd.
Derek
February 13th, 2010 1:50 PM
@Mark: The graphic novel in question was showing the inevitability of events that were altered by time travel. New York was going to be destroyed by someone with powers once, but this was averted only to nearly happen again a few years later. Nathan telling the world about specials was stopped by Future Peter, but his daughter told the world about specials a few years later. And I assume the dream of people dying in New York was the vision Angela saw before Hiro changed the past and subtly altered Sylar's timeline.
Mark
February 13th, 2010 1:40 PM
@Derek No, I agree that some of his points are fair, but what I don't like is the fact he only focuses on the negatives. He never looks beyond the plot or characters either.
For the graphic novel, it still isn't required. It just explains where Tracy has been. The showed in the Art of Deception that Lauren called Tracy, so in the GNs they were just more depth about her. Nothing was required for watching the show.
Sylar: I can't bring Nathan back Peter, but I can sure as Hell swing a sledgehammer.
Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 7:21 PM
I'll be quite clear if I wasn't before: I'd like consistency in abilities and in plot. I don't see a great deal of difference between the two: an inconsistent ability is what leads to an inconsistent - or at least lazy, poorly written - plot because the Heroes just do anything the writers feel like to get out of situations.
February 15th, 2010 5:21 PM
@M.L. House You've changed what you said now. You wanted logic in Tracy's ability, now you're changing it to you want logic in the plot. I never said there were NO plot holes this season, earlier on there have been yes, but I've been defending this episode's plot holes.
I can also see where you're coming from, the fact that, in universe, why would he build up all these connections (especially with Peter) just to win back the girl of his dreams. Now, my theory on this is, he needed all the specials to help create that woodland cottage thing, and then once he said yes, Peter or whoever, would then take over his brother's role as an empath and leader of the carnival, taking over the carnival and looking after Samuel's family.
If you read my post above carefully, I've pointed out that the town Samuel sunk was quite close to the carnival. That's how he sunk it.
If you want to continuously put out negative reviews then so be it. But there are good things mixed in with the bad on th
Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 4:26 PM
@mark: You're totally missing the point. The point of the Vanessa question is this: Nothing that was built up until then made any sense or mattered one bit. Of course the writers knew she would say no -- but did Samuel know that? THAT's the problem right there. He took all these actions, like implanting the compass on Peter, for what reason? A season is supposed to actually make sense when you look back on it. Again, in your defense, you cite my EXACT point:
The writers wrote episodes without thinking ahead and then tried to make sense of what they had written AFTER the fact. But intelligent viewers can see right through that and realize that it's being written on the fly.
I'm still waiting on your explanation, too, as to how Samuel sunk a town without any specials around him.
Do you honestly believe a sci-fi show can make up anything as it goes? You seem like a relatively smart person. Can you really not understand the idea that fans can suspend disbelief for the concept of a sho
February 15th, 2010 3:56 PM
You know what M.L House I agree with you. Thats just a Crazy ass thought...What if Vanessa Said "YES Samuel lets live happily ever after. Would that been the end of the season???" WTF. Vanessa was the WORST THING they brought in to even contribute to Samuels PLOT.
February 15th, 2010 3:18 PM
@M.L. House
A reviewer is meant to take a step back and take a look at something from an unbiased standpoint. If there are negatives, then yes, point them out, but you're also supposed to point out the positives.
Claire and Noah were wet btw. And the carnival was near the town, you saw Lydia look out towards the town.
"I'd love to be positive if there was an ounce of logic". It's a sci-fi show. Because season 1 had total logic, flying, invisibility. It's meant to be like that.
And your fav question, do you really think that the writers were still on edge as to whether or not she would choose him? They knew that she wasn't going to choose him.
I think you misunderstand when they say that they don't plan it out. They plan out the grand scheme of things, how the characters start off, the storylines for each and the finish of the storylines. It's what happens in the individual episodes that they don't plan out.
And as for the compass, it did come in useful when Lydia
Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 3:05 PM
Here's one of my favorite questions to ask regarding the season:
What would have happened if Samuel's ex-girlfriend said she wanted to be with him?
The writers clearly hadn't actually thought out Samuel's grand plan. They had him yammering about this and that, recruiting Heroes for no actual purpose and then decided around episode 15: a-ha! We can have his ex not wanna get back together with him and that will set him off! Who cares that he gave Peter a compass tattoo weeks and weeks ago and that was never followed through on or explained... no one will remember!
Rank: Staff Member
February 15th, 2010 3:01 PM
@mark: Why isn't it a review if it's all negative? I've written hundreds and hundreds of reviews on this site (http://www.tvfanatic.com/reviews/), please feel free to read them. I'm a very fair critic - but there is nothing redeemable about Heroes.
It is atrocious in every single way and I'm not exaggerating when I say someone that defends it such as you almost has to be a writer for the show. I admire your enthusiasm and gotta admit, you're doing your best to think of how certain things could have gone own.
But there's not a single likable character and the fact that you need to invent reasons for what COULD explain away plot holes illustrates all that's wrong with the show. (Tracy made the hole large and Claire and Noah swam through it?!? They weren't wet, and the size of the hole didn't change. Seriously, you're just concocting your own storyline here. What about Samuel? He sunk an ENTIRE town with no specials around him... and then suddenly needed to be surrounded by them?)
I'
February 15th, 2010 8:58 AM
@M.L. House
Firstly Tracy didn't turn them into soil. She basically pumped water into that hole making the hole bigger and bigger until it became a pool of water, which Claire and Noah then swam through to the surface.
Then you say no-one dies. Ok. Let's make a list. Simone. Isaac. Linderman. Elle. Bob. Arthur. Daphne. Charles. Flint. Meredith. Lydia. Arnold. Niki. Nathan. Usutu. Danko. D.L. Knox. Eden. Alejandro. Adam. Kaito. Maury. Ted. Joseph. Chandra. Candice. And these aren't all.
Sure, they're not going to kill off the main characters... why would they do that? "Hmm why don't we kill off half the cast?" It's like in Star Wars. Oh no, the millenium falcon's being chased... they might die. Hm, considering they have Han, Leia, C3P0 and Chewbacca on the ship, I doubt it.
And you can't say that 12 million people have abandoned the show. There are loads of people who don't watch it on the night, but prefer to watch it online, or record it. And I believe those are only
February 14th, 2010 8:02 PM
I think Ali Larter's disappearing act is due to her schedules (new resident evil movie) but the production still wanted her in the season (bryan fuller) then came to a point that they don't know what to do with the character to fit the plot anymore.
Rank: Staff Member
February 14th, 2010 5:34 PM
@mark: I wanna try and sum up my, and many other people's opinions, as simply as possible:
You can't say just "oh, they have super powers, anything goes at any time!" We can suspend disbelief for the concept of a sci-fi show in general, but we still ask for storylines to make sense. I'd like to focus on one:
Tracy turned HRG and Claire into soil. That's absolutely made up on the writers' part. They put two main characters in danger - so this was a major development, not some small B story - and solved the dilemma by inventing something on the spot. Neither Tracy nor Claire nor HRG had anything resembling that ability before. This perfectly sums up the show's problems:
1. There's never an ounce of suspense b/c we KNOW no one will die.
2. To solve situations, the series literally invents abilities on the spot.
That's nothing but shoddy, lazy writing. If you wish to watch a show where there's no consistency week to week, that's your choice and the choice of about 4 million other peop
February 14th, 2010 2:05 PM
Yep, I definitely want a new season, but they need to be put at risk. As long as there is time traveling, there is no real threat to anyone. That needs to be removed in order to have any chance of a decent season 5 (as much as I like Hiro, there's no peril for anyone if he can go and rest everything).
Season 5 needs to be a war between those who wanted to stay hidden and those who wanted to be see. Claire made that decision for herself, but it will affect ALL 'specials' and in that respect, it wasn't a choice that she had the right to make. The war should be blatant, in the public eye, and cross borders.
February 13th, 2010 8:53 PM
@heroesfan I have to admit, that made me lol. You should do stand up. I'm not joking btw, I did actually laugh. :)
Honestly, Zeroes? No, I write Untold Tales. It's not the best fan fiction in the world, but hey, you'd probably like it better than the show.
February 13th, 2010 8:49 PM
(@Mark / Zeroes Writer)
I did turn it into 4 seasons. It was in a precognitive dream. Sylar, Peter, Claire, Rouge, Wolverine and all the other X-Men where there. We were all at a Carnival on HBO. And the guys who brings Tim Kring's coffee was there to write season 6.
And... and... you were there Mark! The smartest man in the world, holding a shovel!
Wait for it...
Wait...
"To fill in the potholes!"
February 13th, 2010 6:20 PM
@heroesfan
yeah, let's see how you can turn that into 4 seasons
February 13th, 2010 6:19 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) I just did better. Let me replay it...
You know when I called you that inexcusable word...
hold for it...
hold...
"Heroes Writer"
P.S. Heroes writing was great when it was the X-Men and Carnivale.
February 13th, 2010 5:47 PM
@heroesfan
ps. I just love the irony of your name. :)
February 13th, 2010 5:46 PM
@heroesfan see now you're just being really immature. Honestly I'd love to be a writer. Yes, their standards could be brought up a bit, and things explained a bit more, but I'll tell you now, they've done well so far haven't they. I'd like to see you do any better.
February 13th, 2010 5:22 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) Your logic seems to be a perfect match for Heroes writing. Also I want to explain to you that wasn't a compliment. But I must say I am truly sorry for name calling. You know when I called you that inexcusable word...
hold for it...
hold...
"Heroes Writer"
February 13th, 2010 4:51 PM
@Derek, I know what this weeks one is about (further up I was actually explaining it to "heroesfan", I was actually referring to the couple prior to this weeks, they explained where Tracy was.
But didn't Tracy say that she no longer wanted contact from Noah? Which explains her disappearance; she wants nothing to do with him. And the call from Lauren brought her back. Characters have disappeared for a while before, just look at Mohinder this season.
February 13th, 2010 4:48 PM
@heroesfan I'm surprised you think I'm a heroes writer.
February 13th, 2010 4:11 PM
(@Mark / Heroes Writer) I'm glad you are proud of your work on Heroes. It's totally original and seamless, or as Tim Kring says in the interview "We’ll take an idea from the guy who gets our coffee, you know?" I see major plot-holes. So we agree to disagree.
Peace.
February 13th, 2010 3:08 PM
i think its lost its track, there is no point in insulting or being aggresive, Tim Kring should just finish this up, take his holidays and then return with a good tv show...doesnt have to be related to heroes but it could.
Ah! There is still juice in the super heroes stuff...but not with these characters:
Sylar who´s character cant be read and one cant feel him real, same goes to the cheerleader, hiro, suresh and all except Peter.
The viewer somehow expects the classic lame ending of "all this was a dream" with the way the story is developing. Characters went in a loop and the only one to be saved, the only one who actually "evolves" from episode to episode is Peter.
This boy, Peter, is the only one who got better with time...and it wasnt that his acting was bad in the first place, just the story pictured him as an overpowered hero with zero will to use them and now is the only one that feels real.
BTW, i kinda get the feeling that the heroes world isnt real anymore as
February 13th, 2010 1:57 PM
(I was referring to a different comment you made above.) And, really, Tracy vanished from the plot entirely. She went from an important character to disappearing, only to randomly reappear on the show to save HRG and Claire and vanish again. To someone who wasn't reading the graphic novels, it all would seem quite odd.
February 13th, 2010 1:50 PM
@Mark: The graphic novel in question was showing the inevitability of events that were altered by time travel. New York was going to be destroyed by someone with powers once, but this was averted only to nearly happen again a few years later. Nathan telling the world about specials was stopped by Future Peter, but his daughter told the world about specials a few years later. And I assume the dream of people dying in New York was the vision Angela saw before Hiro changed the past and subtly altered Sylar's timeline.
February 13th, 2010 1:40 PM
@Derek No, I agree that some of his points are fair, but what I don't like is the fact he only focuses on the negatives. He never looks beyond the plot or characters either.
For the graphic novel, it still isn't required. It just explains where Tracy has been. The showed in the Art of Deception that Lauren called Tracy, so in the GNs they were just more depth about her. Nothing was required for watching the show.