NCIS > NCIS Show-Runner Hints at Tiva Taking Things "Further" > Comments Page 3
AJA looks like there is a bit of jealousy going on with you and the fictional charactor ziva.
And to janet - aside from her good looks, a big part of the reason that Ziva is popular is that she is a Mary Sue and this type of fantasy character is exactly the type of character who is attractive to certain viewers.
Let's see - Ziva supposedly came to NCIS when she was 22. As a child it has been stated that she took piano, dance, and that her mother removed her at some point to get the children away from Mossad, so it doesn't sound like she spent her entire childhood being trained as a Mossad officer. As a matter of fact she stated that after Tali was killed, she volunteered. Let's go down that skill set list - expert sniper, master kiddon fighter, bomb diffuser and expert, car mechanics expert, lock picking expert, knows 5 - no that's right 10 languages (she acquired 5 of those in the space of two years - miraculous!!), and is a high ranking Mossad agent. Since in Israel children are required 2 years of sone kind of military service, Ziva has a college degree, she has mention undercover work in the middle east, and Jenny mentioned how Ziva saved her doing undercover work in Europe. All of this before she came to NCIS at the tender age of 22. Mary Sue much?
ziva never was nor never will be a mary sue.she is one of the most popular charactors on a tv crime show that came out of u.s.a.And the few haters of ziva should stop moaning and move on.
Know what you mean about that edit button friend.
My final comment to AJA was that one person's "Mary Sue" or "Marty Stu" is another person's well written, multifaceted character. I'm sorry, but to those who may truly believe that Ziva is a "Mary Sue", it would appear that the majority of the viewers of the show and its fandom disagree.
@AJA Problem: so are all of the other characters, to one extent or another, including Gibbs. Especially Gibbs. So, I suppose this makes them all Mary Sues and Marty Stues?
Frankly, I have to agree with the professor on this one -- I think that the term "Mary Sue" is used by too many these days as an accusation to hurl against characters they don't like. You may truly believe that Ziva is truly one, but I doubt that the writers do. So she has a tragic background. So does Gibbs. So does Tony. So she has skills and abilities that would appear to be above the level of many with a similar background. McGee has crazy mad computer skills that put him at a level far above those of even the best computer geeks. It's a drama and most characters in a drama have their skills, their abilities, their very lives, presented in such a way that makes them stand out in a crowd, that makes people take notice of them. That helps enhance the drama, makes it that much more dramatic.
ziva isn't a "mary sue".
if you are looking for a textbook "mary sue", then look no further than the character "samantha carter" of stargate sg-1.
i wish they had an edit button.
how do you know what skills anybody operative should have at any particular age?
it should have read..."how do you know what skills an operative should have at a particular age?"
AJA: "But she is still very much written as a far too multiply skilled for her age,..."
and you are basing this on what? your experience as a female mossad agent? one who was essentially raised from birth to be an agent, by a father..an agent himself.
how do you know what skills anybody operative should have at any particular age?
Thanks to Freaking Know It All who clarified my post. I enjoyed yours. Also, I suppose that you are right about the double standard between male and female characters being Mary Sues. I think though that MacGuyver was sort of good for its day, but would now be more widely seen as pretty ridiculous.
And to SAM - yes, us Ziva detractors are often the first to point out her faults such as her violence, her seeming indifference to Tony's feelings when she hits below the belt, or her superior bragging attitude. But she is still very much written as a far too multiply skilled for her age, conveniently and over dramatically wonderful, universally admired, and tragically heroic. All attributes intended to garner sympathy and create flattering illusion for this rather unrealistic character.
A correction: the professor's name should read "Crispin", not "Crespin". My mistake.
No Michael, we cannot all "accept" that Tiva is bad. That's the point: there are a goodly number of us who disagree with you on that and are stating our opinions on the subject, just like you are stating yours. People have different opinions on the subject -- that's crystal clear. If we can all accept that some of us think it's good, some think it's bad, and all are free to post their opinions and give reasons why they think that way, even if it challenges another person's long held thoughts and views, then yes, we can move on.
@Freaking Know-It-All Speaking of which, there was an article commenting on that same aspect of the "Mary Sue", that said Kirk could be described as a "Marty Stu" for the very same reasons you gave, other than the fact that he never dies. Come to think of it though, I guess he did die, more or less, in the last Star Trek movie he appeared in.
@AJA Ah, but here's the thing: you, yourself, as you say, point out all of Ziva's faults, foibles and failures, as do those who agree with you, so if she's all of that, she can't really be much of a "Mary Sue", can she?
Now, I have never seen or read anything by SB, or DPB, or GG, or any of the writers say that Ziva is supposed to perfect, or idealized, or "overly perfect and righteously supperior." It is quite often the case, however, that some characters get tagged with that epithet, rightly or wrongly, when they are viewed by their detractors as dominating the spotlight. Some professor with some knowledge of the subject, an Ann C. Crespin, says the term is used by those who use the term to define a character they don't like, no matter how well written that character might be.
Actually, the term "Mary Sue" was coined because of certain Star Trek:TOS fanfic; however, her unrealistic attributes and skills are accurately described by AJA. However, there is one addition: At the end, "Mary Sue" conveniently bites the dust, leaving all and sundry awash in tears of regret and lament.
That being said, with the exception of the croaking part, AJA quite nicely described the character of "MacGuyver." Does anyone want to get into a sexism debate over why it is okay for a man to possess all of those super-skills (and is not only lauded and praised, but has become part of lexicon pop culture), but not a woman? Perhaps at some point in the future, a woman who kicks the sh*t out of an abusive man or tenderly licks his face (I LOVE that scene!) will be described as "doing a Ziva."
Can we all just accepted that Tiva is as bad as the H/P and the Gara shipper and move on
In fiction a Mary Sue is a character who is overly perfect, tragic, beautiful, often unrealistically young for the skills they possess, miraculously acquires new skills on the spot or magically increases existing skills, loved and admired by all, overly perfect, and righteously superior. The character is considered to be a product of wish fulfillment. So I, and others, use the term to describe Ziva even though she is a tv fictional character, because it most succinctly describes what SB turned her into. Although I think that she was a flawed character from the start, DPB did not create a Mary Sue. That came later. It was quite obvious that SB fanwanked Ziva at Tony's expense, as Tony's IQ and skills were diminished at the same time that Ziva became a Mary Sue. Don't know if it's wish fulfillment on SB's part, but she's still a Mary Sue IMO. Mary Sues cheese up stories with their saccharine sweet over played wonderfulness.
@Michael and to any body else who would like to make a comment
Oh where did you hear about one of Tony's old Girlfriends is coming back?, Wendy came back last season and nothing happened, Can't believe writers are going back down that road again, are they running out of ideas, anyway if it does happen there is going to be a lot of sad Tiva fans.
@AJA when posts are complete lies yes i attack.
Now, as I understand the definition of the term "Mary Sue" or "Marty Sue", or whatever the term is for the male equivalent, these types of characters are supposed to be the writer's way of inserting themselves into the storyline. So, are we saying here that DPB, the creator of the character "Ziva", was inserting himself into the storyline as a female Mossad agent/ assassin?
@janet - I think that the fanwanking and the turning of Ziva into a total Mary Sue and the diminishing of Tony so that Ziva could always shine is boring, formulaic, mediocre, and unimaginative. And yes, I express my opinions in this forum created for fans to be able to express their opinions on the show. I however janet, don't attack other posters for having opinions that differ from mine, because I realize, that in the REAL world, differing opinions are a fact of life and not necessarily a bad thing. Your posts on the other hand are pretty limited to either congratulating posters who share your views or insulting those who don't. So what's up with you?
Unless and/or until DPB comments on what he thinks about how NCIS and its characters are handled these days, any guesses on his opinions on how the characters are being written are just that -- guesses. As he is the one who created and introduced the character of Ziva, and as it was his intention for the two of them to eventually enter into a relationship, I would say he would have no problem with it finally happening. What he would say or think about how it is being handles would, again, be just supposition and nothing more.
If you doubt what I am saying is true Michael and/or Matt, here's what you do: go Google "Why Donald P. Belsario Left NCIS". Near the bottom of the first page you will see TV Guide articles written by Michael Ausiello, the first dated April 24th, 2007, the second dated May 6th, 2007. Everything that I mentioned is contained in those articles.
Now, it must be said that Aussie is sometimes a little -- well, over the top. Nevertheless, I have never heard anybody contradict the substance of what he said in these stories about the situation. Nor have I read anything where any of the outline of the situation has been challenged. So, I would rate the accuracy of his reports on this situation as being quite high.
janet is right there was no Jenna Tony love was Jeanne not Jenna in less there are bring up a girl from his past we never heard of. Tony loves was Jeanne and Wendy
Oh, NCIS Los Angeles was given to Mark Harmon???? Who knew???? Last time I checked, it was Shane Brennan's project.
Like SAM said......show us evidence of anything and everything that has been said by Mark Harmon, Michael Weatherly, Lauren Holly, etc. That's all we want, is for you to actually show us the links so we can see for ourselves.
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