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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.The Mentalist Clips
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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.
February 3rd, 2013 7:04 PM
@km yes, i'm sure i'm just revealing my inner and outer feelings about jane. and i admit that i like lorelei. i think i started to like her the minute she revealed she was a red john emissary. i was so grateful they weren't giving us some hooker with a heart of gold that jane falls in love with story line. only 13 sleeps? can't wait.
February 3rd, 2013 6:53 PM
I'm inclined to think we see what we want to see. If I was inclined to wish any character a little frisson then I would be inclined to think any bed a big deal. Will Jane sleep with Lorelei? If it furthers what either is hoping to achieve then it will. It would play into the familiar scenario for generating romance, because if person A. hurts person B. then person B. believes that person A. doesn't care and when person A. realizes person B. is becoming lost to them they then realize how desperately they want person B. A you don't know what you have til it's gone thing.The only thing that makes me wonder if there is something to make of it, is the cross around Lisbon's neck because the flashback 100th episode they returned to the smaller cross from season 1 It could be a simple Lisbon's mother gave her two and she likes the bigger one better. Cheers! 13 sleeps to a new episode.
February 3rd, 2013 5:51 PM
and if the cabin actually was a safe haven and no one could find them -- i'm sure jane would have done anything lorelei wanted.
February 3rd, 2013 5:42 PM
@watcher more fluffy white bed. jane was wary when he walked to the cabin. he kept looking back at lorelei. her face gave him no clue about what lay ahead. he put himself at her mercy. he behaved like he could trust her, though a short while ago, she'd attacked him viciously. very brave and very smart. all part of his plan to develop a relationship. (like holding a little kid who's clinging to you and hitting you at the same time. you have to let the kid know his anger won't make you disappear.) all the time, the bed is getting screen time. when she said welcome, he was relieved. she relaxed - thought she was in a place she could hide from the world. patrick had that moment of relief too -- when he changed the subject of red john to tea, she was fascinated and seductive. throughout the scene, the bed reminded us (and them) of a place they'd been together away from the world. just my opinion.
February 3rd, 2013 5:19 PM
@watcher. two motel scenes, one cozy cabin scene. the bed was the third character in each. ever sit alone in a room with a bed with a strange man? the vibe is very different from being in a kitchen or a living room. a bed takes up much more share of mind than a coffee table. but that's just me.
re: the boy in the convenience store. yeah. bad homage. i cut simon a break because the boy is his son. it was way too long and not germane to the episode -- especially when you've only got 42 minutes to work with. hard for people to think other people ever get sick of looking at their kid. the other little boys--the shorter was simon's other son -- were probably there so the little one wouldn't be jealous of his big brother.
February 3rd, 2013 5:04 PM
@huisclothes - I hear you. I'm not saying I wouldn't be very angry. I think when I cooled down I would realize the realities of his job. He felt he couldn't tell her and was told not to. But I can see your point. And maybe the fact she couldn't get past it shows they aren't really meant to be together. I mean that was nothing compared to some of the stuff Jane has pulled - and everyone on the team keeps forgiving him.
February 3rd, 2013 5:02 PM
to add to that, when jane said "think how happy she'll be when she finds out you're not dead," that was hideously callow on jane's part. and i usually excuse him everything. and what was the point of the whole deception? was it important to engineer rigsby being separate from sarah? don't think there's an answer coming.
February 3rd, 2013 4:55 PM
Nope. Black Cherry is not a Lorelei episode. Curiouser and curiouser.
February 3rd, 2013 4:54 PM
@watcher regarding sarah breaking up with rigsby over his faked death. usually i'm in the "get over it, you're an adult" camp but in this case, i can't believe he did that. he would have had to tell her and swear her to secrecy. can't imagine being a new mother and finding out that your baby's father had had his face shot off in his work place. horrible. and then to find out he duped you and let you live a few days with that trauma? i would break up with him and worry that our child together might have inherited the stupid gene.
February 3rd, 2013 4:54 PM
Hmmmmm. Three episodes this season with "Cherry" in the title. Devil's Cherry, Cherry Picked and Black Cherry. The last two are Lorelei episodes. But the first is not. Wonder if there's a relationship.
February 3rd, 2013 4:53 PM
@huisclothes - About the bed, I guess we agree to disagree. Almost every scene with Lorelei has been in a cheap motel - bed's everywhere. I don't think that one added anything. The Hitchcock stuff was a bit forced, in my opinion. There was a whole discussion on Reviewbrain's blog about that episode. Specifically the scene in the convenience store where he was staring at the boy, while the 2 boys played outside. The majority of us didn't like the scene and thought it felt awkward and went on too long. It just didn't work. Then someone pointed out in was a Hitchcock homage. Well, that's nice I guess, but the majority of the viewers didn't pick up in it and just thought it was a badly done scene. And even after being told, I still don't like it. It did not work. Sometimes people try too hard.
February 3rd, 2013 4:41 PM
@watcher. agree. don't think there are that many symbols in the show. certainly the name lorelei is. i think the dark roots was just a bad or rushed dye job. i still think the fluffy white bed in the cabin scene was a way to visualize the subtext behind every scene patrick does with lorelei. they slept together. it informs every scene we see them in.
regarding the movie titles on the marquee. some interesting points. but don't forget that simon directed and many of his episodes have shots that reference hitchcock, f.w. murnau, etc. the scene in blinking red light when we see jane's and lisbon's shadows along the warehouse wall is straight out of nosferatu. or the shot from jane's point of view down the hall toward panzer when he says, sure i can't get you anything, a snack?" pure hitchcock. so some of this must be chalked up to simon's regard for the directors of these films.
February 3rd, 2013 3:32 PM
continued: When I say I don't believe they deliberately use much symbolism, I am talking about using one thing to represent something else completely different. Kind of like the point Entwife made about Lorelei's roots showing. She saw it as possibly symbolic of something about Lorelei's personality. I just saw it as a bad dye job.
February 3rd, 2013 3:28 PM
@anitraward - what specifically are you talking about in the Devil's Cherry and the lottery ticket episode? I'm not sure if I understand correctly.
I think things (in terms of plot) usually do line up within each individual episode. There are some exceptions though - times when things in episodes don't make sense to me (letting Erica out of jail to help them seemed unnecessary, Volker panicking didn't seem believable).
But I am talking more about things not adding up over the course of a season or the life of the show. Lots of dropped story lines, things that are never explained. (Jane never following up on Stiles knowing where Kristina was is just one example)
In terms of symbolism, I didn't see much in the lottery ticket episode. I don't consider all the lottery references symbolism - they are just hints to solve the crime. They are exactly what they appear to be. When I say I don't believe they deliberately use much symbolism, I am talking about using one thing to
February 3rd, 2013 3:23 PM
And finally...
'The choice that weirded me out the most was Double Indemnity as the plot centres on a man that is manipulated by a woman into killing her husband and making it look like an accident. He almost gets away with it as his co worker has no reason to be suspicious of him a fellow colleague he has worked with for quite some time and actually views with considerable paternal affection. Yeah he couldn’t solve it because he was too close to see the truth of the murderer in front of him. Hmmm.'
Like I said, the poster was quite thorough and she made some interesting poitns but you can read the full discussion on the site :)
February 3rd, 2013 3:21 PM
More snippets...
Throughout I felt Jane was trying to convince Lorelie to switch sides and Heller was trying to make us hate her less.
Mission to Moscow depicted the Russian people in a sympathetic manner and we were treated to the same with Lorelie. She is no longer a vile temptress who is a minion for our now all power Oz, I mean Red John, instead she is a flawed human with a b#*ch of a mother and a dead sister. For the record the movie was flawed and failed on both fronts, and while she gained some sympathy with me I still don’t overly like her but she grew a little on me and I love the episodes she is in.
February 3rd, 2013 3:20 PM
Cont'd...
Exile and travel also feature heavily in this film and my favourite parallel appeared here as the best way to leave Casablanca or purgatory essentially is a plane to ... drum roll please LISBON.
The choice for Lorelie to go blond was pointless to me as apart from perhaps making her more typical of the noir femme fatales it served no purpose, its not like at that stage they were likely to come across anyone. In double indemnity they gave the female lead a bad wig to show her phoniness and Hitchcock’s use of blondes has been known for its symbolism, maybe thats it?
Mission to Moscow is about an American Russian alliance and was controversial because of its pro soviet views. It really fit with this instalment for me, I mean this was a film whose sole basis was to manipulate not only the viewers at home but a foreign operative to join their side and this episode tried the same. Throughout I felt Jane was trying to convince Lorelie to switch sides and Heller was trying t
February 3rd, 2013 3:19 PM
North by Northwest is all about mistaken identity, misdirection, searching for truth and spies, as are two of the other films. Not knowing who to trust and faceless men trying to hurt you and those around you also feature heavily in these films.
In many ways Eve is Lisbon, doing what is asked of her to help her country. She does this however by falling for the wrong man and then trying to help expose him, despite later falling for the good guy lead...hmm so perhaps Kirkland is a baddie. Eve is always there to save the hapless Thornhill just like Lisbon does Jane.
Snippets cont'd...
The choice of Casablanca to me in some ways was the least subtle. It has themes of the inescapable past, that no matter what you do it will catch up with you and there is no way you can remain neutral. Lorelei seems to think she can, that she is just not going to betray Red John but connects with Jane. Eventually though she will have to choose.
Exile and travel also feature heavily in this film and
February 3rd, 2013 3:10 PM
in the lottery ticket episode, I remember when at the beginning we see a coach driving past and an add for the lottery on it, I immediately thought that it would be meaningful and it was. I think there are clues but I dont think that every little tiny detail is one. like Jane's feet, dont see them as sthg meaningful for example.
February 3rd, 2013 2:59 PM
Watcher, how would you explain the things that do match up. In the Devil's Cherry it all added up. There is no way it would add up if they weren't doing it on purpose. I don't think there is symbolism in everything but they do use it a lot. Look at the lottery ticket episode. That was just more blatant.
February 3rd, 2013 1:59 PM
thanks Watcher! now I know about Sarah.. Im rewatching all seasons I'm now in season 4 so I'll see it again soon.
yes they don't plan very far ahead also probably because they dont know how long they'll last I guess.
February 3rd, 2013 1:53 PM
Mimi, when they faked Rigsby's death at the end of season 4, Sarah supposedly was very angry and ended their relationship (seems to me that is a strange reason to break up with the father of your child.) They made a VERY brief reference to it at he beginning of this season. If you blinked you missed it.
I agree on Elise, etc. They leave loose ends all the time. They clearly don't have the story planned out very far in advance. I think they make it up on the go.
February 3rd, 2013 1:48 PM
watcher, I kind of agree with you about the hair. I don't think they think that far but it's hard to know.
regarding kristina frye, it's true that it's weird jane never hassled Stiles to know how he got that info..
same with Elise, cho's gf, we suddenly stopped hearing about her and what about Sarah (but maybe it's me who missed sthg) suddenly Rigsby is alone with his kid..
February 3rd, 2013 1:28 PM
Here's what Ray Bradbury said when asked about whether he deliberately places symbolism in his writing:
"One writer thought my vampire family story Homecoming was intended as a parable on mankind in the atomic age under the threat of the atom bomb. I was mostly amused. After all, each story is a Rorschach Test, isn’t it? and if people find beasties and bedbugs in my ink-splotches, I cannot prevent it, can I? They will insist on seeing them, anyway, and this is their privilege. Still, I wish people, quasi-intellectuals, did not try so hard to find the man under the old maid’s bed. More often than not, as we know, he simply isn’t there.”
February 3rd, 2013 1:22 PM
I think people read way too much into the symbolism in this show. I frankly don't give the writers that much credit. As we have already discussed, there are huge plot holes all through this show. Things that make no sense and will never be resolve (one example: despite the fact the Stiles told Jane where Kristina was, Jane never connected the dots to realize Stiles knew a lot about Red John and questioned him on it.) Considering all those deficiencies in the writing, I just can't believe that Lorelei's root's showing means anything about her underlying humanity. Same with her dying her hair blonde. If they really wanted symbolism, they should have cast a blonde actress to begin with. Then she could have dyed it dark encouraging us to speculate about whether or not she would abandon her destructive siren ways to help Jane. That would make more symbolic sense. Seriously, I don't believe there is meaning behind everything on the show. These writers aren't that good.