The Mentalist > The Mentalist Review: The Hunt for Volker > Comments Page 14
To me, Red John's behavior towards Patrick just can't be explained by wanting to be mean to him or even emotionally torture him. For one thing, Patrick does not show tortured reactions, except really about his wife and child. So if RJ was shooting for obvious torment, he's not getting much. And it's been a long, long time for RJ to be doing the same things with no reward, if that was his object. He just seems obsessed, wanting to keep Jane isolated from any sprouted love interest. That speaks to a motive of possession and of course control. It's just a jealous boyfriend vibe. A bad boyfriend. In the worst black eye, police calls, restraining order, ending in death kind of way.
anitraward1, To me, RJ's homoerotic attachment to Jane shows up in several ways. First in his apparent close monitoring of Jane, with particular attention to his relationships. That kind of interest says more to me than just cat and mouse murder. RJ's in it for the long term. There's a lot of time and care involved, effort. Why, if he doesn't have a intense attachment to Patrick? Patrick hasn't had many romantic interests to judge by, but an obvious example is capturing Kristina and turning her into a dead person. Total control and removal of a love interest for Jane. RJ moved in swiftly to put an end to that relationship. And Lorelei was just bait, a shell relationship, proffered by RJ. Complete control of the relationship by RJ, offering sex and no more. In a clinical picture, that kind of twisted control doesn't really happen except with a "love" object. It looks like a form of possession and jealousy to me. Since they are both men, it looks homoerotic.
i know it's been mentioned that patrick has to change before lisbon could ever accept him in her life. so i've been toting up his positive points as a potential mate. brilliant. kind. loyal and faithful. insightful. playful. funny. good with his hands (always useful in a man). fertile. loves children. achingly handsome. well-groomed. sharp dresser. healthy. likes music, theater, dance and art. reads voraciously. appreciates good food. can dance. can carry a tune. can cook. can draw. not sexist or racist. neat.
negative points: wants to murder the guy who murdered the woman who married him for all his positive points. dunno, i think he's a good catch. and i think if someone hurt his new family, he'd hunt that person down too. i'd expect no less.
@b&w&r re: what is rj's plan for jane when and if he gets rid of lisbon? i think rj would like to keep jane alive and miserable for as long as possible. what a triumph that would be for rj. kind of a "fool me twice." if they go that way, it'll be a terrible dark ending.
one thing i keep telling myself is that the mentalist is a dramedy. serious but funny. seems like the ending has to be a bit of both.
i think red john going after lisbon is the inevitable storyline here. for those who think rj is mashburn that would mean he's already gotten to her. hope he's not mashburn.
re: the "i love you" vs "love you." "love you" is the scaredy-cat version. i don't know that jane knew he was going to say that, or anything. if jane explained to a shrink that he only told lisbon "love you." the shrink would nod empathically, figure he was too fragile and too defended to discuss it and know damn well that he loved lisbon. don't know that that means they'll wind up together. but he said it. and boy, did she ever want him to confirm it.
The Jane-Lisbon relationship is presented well in terms of the plot. It's kept platonic because it would not make sense otherwise. Jane is obsessed with killing RJ and knows that is likely to end with him dead or in prison. No point in pursuing a romantic relationship as that would be cruel. As for Lisbon, she knows the depth of Jane's obsession and that he is not capable of a romantic relationship now, although she clearly hopes there could be. That can happen only when Jane is free of his obsession and free to move on. To what? The only real happiness he ever had was with his wife and daughter. He needs to get that back and the only way is with Lisbon. She is just like Jane's wife in her understanding of him. He will see that when he is clear of his RJ obsession.
Entwife, please explain to me in full why you think there is a strong homoerotic component to the Red John character. I absolutely do not see it.
b&w&r, I agree the Jane-Lisbon thing is very uncertain. The few hints of more than comradeship possibly could be attributed to writing devices designed to snag ratings and audience. We all know that long withheld romance between two main characters who hint and back off, hint and back off is tantalizing and titillating, a tried and true, even expected device for creating audience interest and fan following. But Heller did say they would get together at the end, so it's not too far-fetched to be wondering about it and looking for it. I think it would be a lot of fun. Why not? It's TV after all and, ultimately, audience satisfaction is important. Seeds, sprouts, banked embers and sparks. I'm for it! :-)
Lisbon in this hypothetical situation in his mind that he does? One thing that's hard to say is how aware Jane is of this possibility, he clearly has tried to protect Lisbon in the past by leaving her out of things, but how aware is he of possibility of red john himself directly coming after Lisbon? It's tempting to say he is, but I'm not totally sure. And more interesting, what will Lisbon's reaction be if/when Red John comes after her? That'll be interesting if she makes this a Jane and Lisbon thing or if she involves the rest of the team because Lisbon as we know is a horrible liar and horrible at keeping things quiet? And if she doesn't keep thing quiet, does word get out to the rest of the CBI/FBI where RJ has his friend and create more chaos within the entire CBI? Hmmm Hmmm Hmmm, I'm convinced this RJ coming after Lisbon situation will arise, and if this is the last ride, it'll be pretty soon.
Also for those who are noting that Lisbon is in danger from Red John, this is something I've felt for years and have been a bit surprised it hasn't been acted on. We saw Lorelei openly almost "troll" Jane for lack of a better word on his relationship with Lisbon to try to manipulate him and get in his head. There's no doubt Red John is aware of the Lisbon dynamic in Jane's life. But here's what people have to remember: Red John accomplices have already tried to kill Lisbon, TWICE(tood harvey in S1 finale, O'Laughlin 2 years ago). Each time though it didn't look like a top priority(Harvey more wanted to just do some last second havoc wrecking, O'Laughlin wanted Hightower and it was situation dependent killing the rest). What if it becomes Red John's top priority, how does he approach it and what message does he send to Jane(perhaps he brings another Lorelei to Jane to manipulate him). Does he really try to get at Jane personally and if so what is his plan for Jane after he gets rid of L
Now, are there seeds in place here? I could see that, but there need something to sprout this that hasn't happened yet, it's definitely possible, we know the acknolwedgement Jane has shown towards the importance of Lisbon in his life, and we saw in the season 4 finale last year the importance of Jane towards Lisbon: how she couldn't sleep at night worried about him how even after 6 months all she could think about was his safety, and that look she had on her face and the way she expressed the question to Jane "what did you mean" where you could see she felt and saw something. But there's more that has to happen ,more that has to be acted on, before this comes close to a reality. I'm not saying it won't happen, and I agree seeds have been planted, but the Jane-Lisbon Jisbon idea is deeper and has more uncertainty still to it than alot of people realize.
It is possible for a woman to fill a void in a man's life that's not romance and that type of attraction, especially for someone as different as Jane, as damaged and unwilling of commitment and someone who isn't always the most trusting. That's another thing, people have to give this context, if Jane does show something towards Lisbon(and I don't think he really has yet), you have to put it in context of a man with nobody else in his life, so damaged as LaRoche once told him, and someone who wore his wedding ring long after his wife's death. So showing something that comes across as romance towards Lisbon, which I still don't think has happened yet, even if it did, isn't necessairly what it seems in terms of trying to spark a relationship or the desire for one.
@antiraward1: I'm glad you've made these points because they show what I've been saying all along that this Jane-Lisbon romance is more a fan creation than anything else right now. And you said the key point, all Jisbon worshipers like using the evidence from season 4's finale of Jane saying love you as a key moment, but you made the key distinction it was love you NOT I love you, that's the key caveat and people also have to remember the context it was said in, when they were in the midst of a high stakes pressure escape plan where impulse and emotion was more at play. And you are right, Lisbon fills a void for Jane, but why does that void have to involve romance? What have we seen that there is romantic feelings on both sides? I've never gotten a good answer on this.
I also agree that Lisbon is in more danger from Red John than we know, and almost certainly has been from the moment Jane joined the CBI team. Another reason for Patrick and Teresa to keep things cool between them. With all the moles in the CBI, and who know what other kinds of informational assets RJ uses, a full blown affair between them would quickly become known to RJ, and I feel sure he would then try to kill Lisbon in order to keep Jane isolated and all to his rotten little RJ self. I definitely see a strong homoerotic component to Red John's lust to keep Patrick for himself and control his relationships, by utterly destroying them. I can't wait to see the lights go out on RJ, and I want to see every minute of it!
I do think there's a definite romantic interest between Lisbon and Jane, they've just been banking it so low that it hasn't even sparked yet. I think that's the way they both want it right now. Since it hasn't been sparked, it's pretty easy to ignore, kind of a mutual unspoken status quo. Both have to know that it could be more, but neither wants that right now. And I agree it has a lot to do with them both working on the same team and Lisbon being in charge of the team. She has to uphold the rules of the agency, set an example, and besides the ethics of Lisbon being involved with one of her employees just wouldn't cut it, she wouldn't violate it, and Jane is aware of the importance of that for both of them but probably especially for Lisbon. It's like he has to do his part to help Lisbon do hers. There's always a chance that the spark happens in a volatile circumstance. The aftermath would be harsh on Lisbon's career unless she immediately resigned or Jane left CBI.
Huisclothes-you know everything we discussed about Jane and Lisbon suggests that Lisbon is in more danger than we know. She is appearing to be a likely candidate for a Red John kidnapping to use as leverage over Jane.
OK, THE PONY THING WAS PRETTY FUNNY! LOL!
What I'm really curious about now is, what is Jane doing at night and on his off days? Huisclothes, don't say sneaking around with Lisbon! Jane has no community ties or friends to speak of and he doesn't deal with his family anymore. sooo.....it kind of begs the questions. I know he's not just hanging out in his hotel room eating eggs, so what's he doing? This question and the way he acted in the last episode is starting to make me suspicious of him. Not in a bad way, it just seems like he's on some next level stuff. He knew things he should not have known and he acted like the cat that ate the canary! Also, how do you jsut stumble into a government organization after being in a mental intitution for a year and get your hands on a major case and hired as a consultant.
Entwife-The Devil's Cherry episode was very revealing episode. It showed a deeper side of Jane. It also showed that he wants to change but is fighting with the idea of changing or continuing the fight. And yes Huisclothes in these episode he did say Lisbon was the only one that really knew him. Entwife I do think he drank some more of that tea. I think he did it to see is wife and daughter. I think this episode show how lonely and vulnerable he feels without his family. The one thing the episode did was not tie up the loose ends. I really do think Lisbon is filling a void for Jane, one that keeps him stable.
Huisclothes-No doubt there is a seed. I've always said that. Now, Jane never said I love you. He said LOVE YOU, there's a difference. Jane also bought a necklace for Van Pelt and watches for Cho and Rigsby. And yes you are right about the connotations concerning the fact that they do have feelings for each other. The problem is they can't express them. One of them would have to leave the CBI if they did. Don't get me wrong, I do like the relationship they currently have with each other. It feels good and I like their interactions with each other. But right now, they feel more like family or close friends. This is however seeds for a good romantic relationship if he's willing to change.
What a great and huge conversation to follow here. For one thing, I've been wondering about the black cherry, too. At the end of that episode it sured looked like Jane had bought a bag of the stuff and was brewing it up, I assume hoping to meet his daughter again. So, I think it will figure into the storyline at least one more time. I've watched to see if he ever seems impaired since, but I haven't noticed anything.
jane and lisbon do give each other room. neither is a proselytizer and that bodes well for any relationship. platonic or romantic. neither of them has put their cards on the table about the feelings they have. if anything, jane has been more forthcoming. he did say "i love you, teresa" and she heard it and he knows she heard it and they tacitly agreed to shelve it. he's made a point of telling her she can trust him and that he'll always be there to save her. he told her she looked beautiful in the angry little princess gown and he bought her a necklace that he thought looked lovely with her eyes. he bought her a pony (what the hell did she do with that?) he asked her to dance. he thinks she'd look great with a pixie cut. he understands that when she's strict with him, it means he's special to her. take away the names and ask yourself how guy x feels about girl y.
Rationalgal-it's easy to be accepting of each other when you are not in a relationship. Jane and Lisbon's relationship is work related only. It is very easy to agree and disagree in this type of relationship. They do have a very long work history but I have not seen a history of them being in love with each other. There have been some very endearing moments but nothing to indicate a clear idea of them being in love. Not yet anyway.
Correction-ruin not rouine.
OR..........we could just be over thinking the whole relationship. Bruno Heller said they would not get together until the very end of the series. If this is the case then we don't need to ponder what happens after the first kiss. We can just enjoy the feel good ending of boy gets girl. :)
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