Klaroline or Forwood?
So Bonnie and Elena don't have morals?
Elena does not have anything.
Bonnie's "morals" can be broken by doing something as stupid as taking her earrings hostage.
t's cool for them to be with guys that have the power to abuse them?No matter what implications show has(since the show is incredibly misogynist about it), no its not, hence why KC will always be a crackship and not something supported by good quality writing or human logic.Posted 12/14/2012 2:16:12 PM #
@BN She didn't seem to give a fuck when she got Chris killed for her own gain(and yes saving her friend is her own gain).There are 2 sides to every person BN,infact we have a saying in india,loosely translated it means there is a saint and a devil in every person's heart,it just depends on who listen to or something like that(i said this in regards to Care not Klaus).Caroline can be pretty moral at times but she has done some immoral stuff too,i'm not comparing it to Klaus's level of evil coz LOL but i get why she can see where he's coming from.And its not like she has forgotten how evil he is or how he ruined everyone's life in MF,she does,she is barely even civil to him and is down with any plan to get him killed.But she got to see a different side of him and was feeling guilty because of that.It doesn't have to mean the show ruined her character.she's just seeing things from a diff POV now.Posted 12/14/2012 2:20:03 PM #
That seems pretty hypocritical of you since you shipped DE in s1.You do remember Damon raped and abused Caroline in s1 don't you?It was also revealed that he slept with and turned Elena's mother in the same season and that had no consequences whatsoever.There is no evidence really that Elena could've overlooked all of that.Yeah she was a girl in mourning and was trying to tone down her personality but thats neither here nor there,it could've gone either way and she became this Miss Moral mary sue instead.But if DE wasn't a crackship why is KC one then?Posted 12/14/2012 2:40:18 PM #
I don't agree with BN that Caroline is too moral for Klaus, this is BS and sometimes hormones override logic, the reason she houldnt be seduced or sympathise with him is because he's hurt so many people close to her and she is no where near as forgiving as Elena, like she demonstrated in last week's episode.Posted 12/14/2012 2:43:25 PM #
^This i might agree with.lol but to be honest she hates Damon only wrt what he did to her not because he hurt others too.And if she can forgive Stefan for the horror he's wrecked before then i guess,forgiving Klaus isn't too out of question,especially if they give dark Caroline a try.Posted 12/14/2012 2:57:59 PM #
God Kitty, she made a deal with Klaus to kill an innocent hybrid, only to tell Tyler in his face that "he wasn't a friend" despite that this hybrid helped them save Elena. I was not thrilled with that scene, but guess what? She's not so moral anymore, especially if she says she has to "remind herself" of the kind of person Klaus is, which pretty much hints that he's growing on her. But killing Carol puts a huge dent in between them anyway, though I don't doubt it'll get talked around, since Elena is banging the guy who killed her ex boyfriends sister, because he was "bored" And Elena is not moral, nicfanz, she pretends to be.Posted 12/14/2012 4:46:38 PM #
She didn't seem to give a fuck when she got Chris killed for her own gain(and yes saving her friend is her own gain)Now see, one of reasons why I do not watch this show anymore is that I predicted character assassinations like that happening to her because Plec hates her.
That's not Caroline.
There are 2 sides to every person
Yes and Caroline is both
- a weak frail girl with thousands of complexes
- a heroic moral compass who knows what is right and manages to be brave when time comes, overcoming her frail introvert side.
it means there is a saint and a devil in every person's heart,it just depends on who listen to or something like that(i said this in regards to Care not Klaus).Caroline can be pretty moral at times but she has done some immoral stuff too,i'm not comparing it to Klaus's level of evil coz LOL but i get why she can see where he's coming from.
You see, faulty understanding of concept of gray morality like that really pisses me off in people. Gray morality does not mean that character will build an orphanage one day and eat babies the next.
Gray morality is very hard to write and requires a good understanding of character motivations because thats what it's about - motivation and point of view. Someone who was written for entire show as Social Darwinist does not suddenly start saving the weak without actual motivation and character growth that would take them somewhat away from social darwinism and jsutify their actions.
Gray morality type of narrative is all about sliding scale of perception of morality of one's actions. It does not mean that the actions one takes have to be on the opposite scales of morality. It just meanst hat the actions one takes can be interpreted in different ways, and anmely depend on character's motivation.
The way Caroline has been written, all life should be equal to her - she is a no-compromise person who holds on to her sense of morality because she associates it with her own identity as well as retaining it. BONNIE is someone who could weigh morality and actually make sacrifices for people she cares about, not Caroline.
What we have in the current situation of tvd is supposedly gray morality characters, doing black and white morality kind of actions and then getting shoehorned into gray and white(or gray and black morality, depending on perspective, although considering TVD does not have any real villains, its most likely the former) morality type of narrative, by either whitewashing those who did something "wrong" or pulling down those who did something right, into dirt.
What TVD is doing with this equals a lawful and smart judge suddenly that the serial rapist, that he should convict, is innocent, because the judge himself feels guilty about throwing kittens through a window when he was a child.
That seems pretty hypocritical of you since you shipped DE in s1.You do remember Damon raped and abused Caroline in s1 don't you?It was also revealed that he slept with and turned Elena's mother in the same season and that had no consequences whatsoever.There is no evidence really that Elena could've overlooked all of that.
Wrong. The way Elena was written that season did not give us any clear indication on where she stands in terms of moral alignment(to simplify it, let's use the standard scale popularized by tabletop gaming in ~70's and easily adaptable to works of fiction). The way fiction is written, characters tend to "slide" from one position to other, to say it in the most simple terms possible(its a bit more complex than that but oh well).
Elena of S1 was a true neutral. She had possibilities to be written any way possible with correct character development. And only three out of nine "alignments" would go against Damon/Elena, while the foreshadowing seemed to hint ELena's character being something in-between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral, but being dampened by grief and all that stuff.
We are talking about person who was hinted to be "fun", irresponsible, someone who got her parents killed because of her ego and rebelousness. Someone who supposedly dated Matt without any real feelings, but just because she could. Someone who was at the center of attention, but then got ridden by guilt and decided to try to tone it down for a while. That was Elena of S1.
AFterward they made her into mary sue which FIRMLY lockes her into "lawful good" without possibilities to go anywhere else, or she would not be mary sue she is.
Same With Damon - we DID NOT KNOW how Post-Tomb Damon would act in the shoes of first few episode Damon. He was written as multilayered character with far more depth than simple misogyny. And then it all went to crap in terms of writing him as complex, as writers turned him into someone who flips between chaotic good and chaotic neutral but manages to contradict itself along the way, in terms of writing.
THAT'S when DE became completely impossible.
Caroline has been THE ONLY character who has remained consistent in how she is written and she was given no reason past the turning(which was used to reaffirm her direction as Neutral Good/Lawful Good). There's no reason for her to suddenly move the whole row down just so another character can move one row up. Caroline KNOWS good from wrong and she supports Good even if she did not always do. She condemns what is bad, because that way she CAN keep herself in check and be herself.
, this is BS and sometimes hormones override logic
And if TVD had a more complex narrative than it does and did not rely on two dimensional character stereotypes, that would be correct. However there's simply nothing in the show that would SHOWCASE that flexibility. No one acts according to their age or psychological profile. NO ONE HAS a psychological profile. And Caroline is someone who would keep everything in check, because she has been written as someone for whom her IDEALS overcome her animalistic INSTINCTS - she overcame VAMPYRISM because its wrong.
Yet again, Caroline lacks MOTIVATIONS and any sort of set up in the narrative itself to support such a shift in terms of how she views morality.
the reason she houldnt be seduced or sympathise with him is because he's hurt so many people close to her and she is no where near as forgiving as Elena, like she demonstrated in last week's episode.
And here you practically completely agree with me - Any sort of pity or good kind of emotion towards Klaus is impossible due to how she was written and is completely out of character.Posted 12/14/2012 5:50:53 PM #
@Flora hence why I said in my post above this one that one of major reasons on why I quit this show is because i feared the character assassination Caroline would have to undergo in order to whitewash Santa Claus. I am not okay with what happened now just as much as I am not okay with what you wrote has happened before this season.Posted 12/14/2012 5:52:19 PM #
*normally, not anmelly.
Gods people you made me write entire essays again :(Posted 12/14/2012 5:54:14 PM #
Dude, she does not hate Caroline. This is like her golden girl, assassination or not. Dude I can't believe she's going to get kidnapped againPosted 12/14/2012 5:55:57 PM #