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the whole letter can be summed up "you can't become a vampire because you have to marry a man, birth a baby and stay in the kitchen" and show instead goes with "aww, what an awesome man, he sacrificed his life so elena can go and do that now!...

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196 posts
Charmed-jenna

I actually just watched that scene right now.

I don't particularly like the part about Elena having a baby as well. The wording is terribly OFF.

But I don't think that part is really the biggest part of the letter. I agree that the rest of the letter sounds very sweet. Especially the last line, about wether she's a vampire or not. Also I don't think John's was suggesting that this is the right and only path for Elena, he was highlighting he's own parenting faults as a way to guide and help Elena so that she doesn't make the same mistakes. I just think that part could;ve used a little more tweeking, it did come off very sexisty. ONLY that part for me.

BTW, nothing in the letter Elena's life partner and marrying and domestication or any of that.

Also considering Elena's personality(or lack there off) and the way her character is portrayed. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to assume that she does want the picket fence life. As Jenna Hamilton says, "Assumptions are the mother of all screw-ups"

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3965 posts
Halde

Marrying and having a baby IS the stereotypical female role from sexist point of view. 

Getting married or having babies(especially the latter) is not a stereotype. It's the way nature designed us. It would be like saying that providing sperm is male stereotypic. There are no other alternatives. If men could get pregnant by natures hand, then it would be stereotypical for females to have babies.

With John there's no sense of subjectivity. 

I can see this, so gotta agree on this. He is assumptious about her having a baby. He assume it as a fact. For this to work it should have been established in a conversation between John and Elena, where Elena talks about hopes and future etc.

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3965 posts
Halde

Also about the whole assumptious having a baby part. It fits pretty well and is believeable as something John would say. The letter stay true to his nature. When he is there, he is over protective, and all about Elena surviving. The baby thing is sorta his way of saying "live life to his fullest". He haven't known anything greater in his life than Elena and her mother Isobel(pre-vamp).

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3965 posts
Halde

I am kinda contradicting myself there. He is assumptious but it fits his character and it makes sense in the reflection of his own life to say what he says.

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I agree that the rest of the letter sounds very sweet. Especially the last line, about wether she's a vampire or not. 

Even non-sexist parts have the patriarchal style of writing in the narrative with John presenting his expectations Elena has to follow. There's no message of independency or support in it. Its pretty much "BE HUMAN AND HAVE BABIES. BTW, I will love you even if you do not do that, but I die for you to BE HUMAN NAD HAVE BABIES"

Frankly the letter does not even feel emotional since it does not even reflect a psychologic state of a person who is soon to die. its like "daddy john just went to france and left me this letter" kind of letter.

Also I don't think John's was suggesting that this is the right and only path for Elena, he was highlighting he's own parenting faults as a way to guide and help Elena so that she doesn't make the same mistakes 

So in a way, just like every male figure in the show, he was governing Elena's future. that is sexism.

 Also considering Elena's personality(or lack there off) and the way her character is portrayed. It doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to assume that she does want the picket fence life. 

The fact that entire "character"  writing on Bella SwanElena Gilbert is sexist doesn ot excuse letter also being sexist. 

 Getting married or having babies(especially the latter) is not a stereotype. It's the way nature designed us. 

You have NO IDEA on just HOW sexist that sentence sounds, do you? ....

  There are no other alternatives. 

Hmmm...how about NOT marrying and NOT having a baby?

or marrying a member of same gender and NOT having a baby?

or not marrying and adopting?

Or marrying and adopting?

or marrying the same gender and adopting?...

 

I can see this, so gotta agree on this. He is assumptious about her having a baby. He assume it as a fact. For this to work it should have been established in a conversation between John and Elena, where Elena talks about hopes and future etc.

Also about the whole assumptious having a baby part. It fits pretty well and is believeable as something John would say. The letter stay true to his nature. When he is there, he is over protective, and all about Elena surviving. The baby thing is sorta his way of saying "live life to his fullest". He haven't known anything greater in his life than Elena and her mother Isobel(pre-vamp).

I am kinda contradicting myself there. He is assumptious but it fits his character and it makes sense in the reflection of his own life to say what he says. 

 

We are not talking about his character coherence. John Is one of better-written characters in the show, after all.

We are talking about narrative. IT FITS his character, but show takes the letter as a pure and undeniable unchallenged objective truth.   There's not even one scene of hint that the characters and the show ACKNOWLEDGE that it is a subjective POV of John Gilbert and not metaphorical "THIS IS WHAT I GIFT YOU THIS PERFECT AND THE ONLY WAY TO HAPPINESS", which is how the letter and the whole plot point comes off. 

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If the show was not so intent on IGNORING THE FUCK OUT OF ANY POSSIBILITIES TO DEVELOP ELENA, I would have fully expected for Elena to go all angsty "bawww now I won't be able to marry and have babies" rant after turning. Because the show and the writers sure as hell are convinced that it is the ONLY WAY to go for normal life. 

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3965 posts
Halde

how about NOT marrying and NOT having a baby?

or marrying a member of same gender and NOT having a baby?

or not marrying and adopting?

Or marrying and adopting?

or marrying the same gender and adopting?...

Which are options today. But if the concept of gender discrimination needs to be applied in ALL ages, in ALL societies, otherwise it wouldn't have any meaning. 

 

 

 

You have NO IDEA on just HOW sexist that sentence sounds, do you? ....

None at all. You seem to be under the illusion that men and women are the same. . . lol. . .

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3965 posts
Halde

But the concept of gender discrimination needs to be applied*

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3965 posts
Halde

how about NOT marrying and NOT having a baby?

 

 

 

Actually, this is pretty sexist. This implies that women can only be equal with men in todays society. . . That technology was what they needed in order to gain equality.

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