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3965 posts
Halde

i'd say BTVS has a stronger focus on characters

Which essentially makes it weaker. The strong point in both Buffy and ATS is the characters, not the plots. It's not necesarily bad plots, but they're nothing to "Huzzah" over. If BtVS' and ATS' characters and characters SL and stuff like that weren't such a strong point, the show wouldn't be much. It is not a show that can put a big load on plots. The plots are pretty much there to keep the characters busy. The plots are very repetitive and often predictable. They didn't dare to go very far with plots(to take an exampe, Joss Whedon/ Drew Goddard went VERY far with the plot in Cabin in the Woods), they didn't risk much. With the characters it's completly reverse. Not a single main/support character in Buffy is just onesided. Sorta like with The (again to draw a Whedon example) Avengers. The plot was very simplistic, and almost felt like something from The Transformers(which is probably some of the worst movies in decades), but what made the movie so interesting was the characters and their interactions(especially on the ship).

 

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Which essentially makes it weaker. The strong point in both Buffy and ATS is the characters, not the plots. It's not necesarily bad plots, but they're nothing to "Huzzah" over. If BtVS' and ATS' characters and characters SL and stuff like that weren't such a strong point, the show wouldn't be much. 

Considering a "plot" is just a scene for characters, I don't see how focusing on characters(ala the stuff that matters) instead of props makes it weaker.

And I have to strongly disagree. The show in an essence might be sort-of "cop procedural" kind of thing, but overall the narrative flows very well, every season transitions from one to the other, the events actually have consequences and get reactions from the people, the show is shot beautiful and the overall message of every plotline is brilliant.

 It is not a show that can put a big load on plots. 

Its a character study, coming of age story, the deconstruction of heroism tropes, an exploration of the meaning of identity, a sarcastic commentary on popculture and society AND a message of female empowerment. You would be a hard pressed to find another show that manages to put all those messages in fluenty and not be an utter chaos.

Add to that the writing itself being brilliant and filled with both nods to the future and past plotlines, not to mention the level of wit that is impossible to challenge and the level of inventive cinematography.  

The plots are very repetitive and often predictable.

And I am sorry but this is bullshit.

if there's ONE thing this show is not, its predictable. 99 times out of 100, a viewer has no fucking idea on where it all is going.

Also repetitive? not really. messages do repeat, but overall its more like - every season is built up on previous ones. Its not a repetition, its an extension and return  to already touched themes

They didn't dare to go very far with plots(to take an exampe, Joss Whedon/ Drew Goddard went VERY far with the plot in Cabin in the Woods), they didn't risk much. 

The permanence of death, every single death that happens in the show, the entire seasons 5 to 7 of Buffy, the decisions surrounding Buffy's own character, hell, the series finales of both shows.

The show did not only HAVE balls. The balls themselves were amde out of solid iron 

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3965 posts
Halde

I am talking about the actual story being told and what actually happens.

 

There was 2 times in this entire show where something unexpected happend, and that was when Jenny died and when Tara died. Episode wise, there are unique episodes such as "Out of Body, Out of Mind", "The Body" and like that, but otherwise, it is rare that something was like "WTF just happend?". TVD has more unexpected events and plot twists. I am talking about S1-Masquerade. The story was like zig-zag and something new and flavourish came almost with each episode. It was much harder to predict what would happen.

Ofcause TVD tells a more fluent tale, where Buffy is season plots, and within each season there are multiple standalone episode stories, often unrelated to the season. In TVD each episode is a part of the main story, and the episodes don't avoid the main story.

 

 

BtVS is overall pretty much a story of a girl growing into womanhood. Which is sorta the red thread.

 

 

 

What happend in Cabin in the Woods was predictable, yes, but that was the entire point of the movie. To sorta rip apart the immensly boring way basically every(at least every Hollywood produced) horror movie is produced.

 

 

The permanence of death, every single death that happens in the show, 

Are you saying that while watching BtVS for the first time, you expected the couple of important characters that died over the course of the show to ressurect o_O?

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bad Halde. What did we agree about spoilers?

 

 but otherwise, it is rare that something was like "WTF just happend?" 

Sorry, but nope. Pretty much majority of stuff, even the monster of the week storylines have involved some sort of expectation subversion.

 

TVD has more unexpected events and plot twists. I am talking about S1-Masquerade.

And, honestly? Not really. The only REALLY unexpected thing in TVD back then was council reveal at the start(although its sort of expected due to tropes associated with the setting). Its only in tvd S2, did the show degrade and start throwing random shit at you, in similar, but less coherent way like Angel Season 4 did. 

Otherwise it was just a decently written coherent storyline. Nothing the level of Restless, Amends, Body or the whole Season Six of Buffy.  

 

where Buffy is season plots, and within each season there are multiple standalone episode stories, often unrelated to the season.  

 Aaand yet again bullshit. every season has an overarching theme(or multiple ones) with each episode building up upon it and mattering in terms of decision-making and choices that characters would do. There are only few episodes that are not directly tied into the seasonal narrative, and most of them are in the first season.  

Angel The Series IS more serialized, but in the end every episode is actually LESS related to the overarching story   than in BTVS.

 

BtVS is overall pretty much a story of a girl growing into womanhood.

Except thats just 1/100th of what its about.It IS a coming-of-age-story(and not only for Buffy), but its also:

A clever deconstruction of superhero genre. social commentary about variety of themes like domestic violence, parental problems, dysfunctional families, etc. parodies and nods of pop culture icons and tropes Exploration and study of the psyche of each main character, each of them displaying a distinctly different psychological patterns and making distinctly different choices.  philosophical and psychological exploration of identity and what that word actually means, as well as exploring such things as human nature, duality. deep exploration of morality of one's actions, the relativity of that and the consequences that come with every action taken.  message of gender equality, racial equality and sexual orientation equality. 

 

 Are you saying that while watching BtVS for the first time, you expected the couple of important characters that died over the course of the show to ressurect o_O?

When i first watched, yes. both BTVS and ATS are still unparalleled in genre tv in terms of ruthlessly and without too much ado, murdering  very important fan favorite characters in very cruel ways(sunshine, my only sunshine). None of the deaths are actually expected, nor happen in the way one expects them to. 

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3965 posts
Halde

Except thats just 1/100th of what its about.

That's essentially what it is. It has more to it, but break it down, and that's what it mainly is, and mainly supposed to be. At least people like James Masters state that. But what does he know? Like he was part of the prodcution. . ..

I expected Joyce to die. Maybe not at the exact time, but i assumed it would happen at some point. I never expected anyone to come back from the dead, except Buffy.

Sorry, but nope. Pretty much majority of stuff, even the monster of the week storylines have involved some sort of expectation subversion.

Should read: I think pretty much majority of stuff, even the monster of the week storylines have involved some sort of expectation subversion.

gender equality

Female empowerment would be a better description.

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That's essentially what it is. It has more to it, but break it down, and that's what it mainly is, and mainly supposed to be.

Gender empowerment is major story message, but not the only story theme. any work of fiction can be simplified to one message since that's the basis of starting to write one.

I never expected anyone to come back from the dead, 

Well that's your unique situation then.

Should read: I think pretty much majority of stuff, even the monster of the week storylines have involved some sort of expectation subversion.

Narrative is all about interpretation. Shows do not need to TELL, they only need to SHOW.

 Female empowerment would be a better description.

That is true to a point, but both shows also showcase capable male characters who are just as capable as female characters. The show does not go about one sex beign superior,

The show idea is - gender does not define your capabilities, your identity, what makes you, you, does. 

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3965 posts
Halde

That is true to a point, but both shows also showcase capable male characters who are just as capable as female characters.

 

I completly agree here. Both genders are very capable in both shows. But it's sorta obvious(not so much in Angel) that it "favours" the females more. But ofcause, this is 8-15 years ago, a lot have changed since then, so for the time it was made, an arguement can be made that it pioneered in its media on the subject of equality of gender. Looking in the glasses of today(at least DK lol:)), the better description would be female empowerment.

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Looking through the glasses of today, when 99% of the shows are full of misogyny and sexism, whedonverse stands even higher. 

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New covers for January issues of "Buffy Season Nine"

 

as well as  "Willow" miniseries:

 

 

 

Also after newest chapter, Willow is now officially my favorite character in the whole verse.  

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3965 posts
Halde

I knew it!

 

The actor playing Harmony's minion is the same actor playing Andrew!

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Vampire Diaries Quotes

You want a love that consumes you. You want passion and adventure, and even a little danger... I want you to get everything you're looking for. But for right now, I want you to forget that this happened. Can't have people knowing I'm in town yet. Goodnight, Elena.

Damon

Damon: You know what they are? Children. Like lighting a candle's going to make everything OK, or even saying a prayer. Or pretending Elena's not going to end up just like the rest of us murdering vampires. Stupid, delusional, exasperating little children. And I know what you're going to say: 'It makes them feel better, Damon.' So what? For how long? A minute, a day? What difference does it make? Because in the end, when you lose somebody, every candle, every prayer is not going to make up for the fact that the only thing you have left is hole in your life where that somebody that you cared about used to be. And a rock with a birthday carved into it that I'm pretty sure is wrong. So thanks, friend. Thanks for leaving me here to babysit. Because I should be long gone by now. I didn't get the girl, remember? I'm just stuck here fighting my brother and taking care of the kids. You owe me big.
Alaric: I miss you too, buddy.

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