Maj
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I still know the final moment when I loved Samuel as the villian...The moment he killed Joseph and Mohinder, but Hiro saved Mohinder life.  I told myself this guy is gonna revolutinize the Heroes saga.  They ended the show with a excellent climax where a villain can grow in power with other heroes around him.  Nice Cliffhanger going into Hiatus.  THE HIATUS was supposed to be the next step and reveal everything, Samuels Plot, motive, implementation, progress...SOMETHING...Something to show some threat is growing, some evil is coming that the heroes now have to face off against, band together.  But what do the writers do ...they dont go the next step...they stayed at level one, no motive, no plot, no story, no progression, espacially no revealation of anything evil or threat, Samuel is the same exact character from the beginning just offering welcome cards to other heroes. Just all nice and casual, having a good day Samuel.  WTF!

Hello writers couldnt you have it that now that Samuel knows of this great power with in him that he goes on a Kidnapping spree, that he sends out his minions to wreak havok and grab those that can benefit him to become unstoppable...IT was PERFECT, PERFECT SETUP before Hiatus...What happened....Why didnt the writers go the next step, why did they screw him, they screwed Sylar, and now there screwing them both again more....WTF WTF WTF..

guys im really sorry but im starting to feel like a broken record..HOW...JUST HOW does one setup a GREAT CLIMAX only to not even Persist at that point, how do you not progress, When you read a book and just when things are getting good dont you want to turn the next page or do you want to go back to chapter 1.  COmmon Sense, Common Sense, The basics in story writing ...how are these rules, protocols, guidelines not being met, how are they able to bypass without seeing consequences of their actions.  Dont they know that the fans viewing the show determine if it stays on, dont they know that...DONT THEY? Forgive me guys but the next promo of Sylar asking Matt to take away powers takes teh cake on the writing for me.  I still say they shouldve killed him in season 1 he wouldve died honorablly. 

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sylarISgood
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I can understand everything you say maj, i really do. i just think it may be premature is all. i'm gonna give it till the end of the season before i flip-out, especially if it ends on a bum note.

all you say is correct. the christmas break should have seen something special for a return. it was a boring two-episodes. that said, the next episode was great-this is the reason i'll wait.

for me, it rests on the final three episodes.

i dont understand why they dont follow LOSTS idea....plan stories (or a full story) over three seasons (or more)....create continuity, know where they're heading, plan lots of twists, throw in the unexpected....but know the end game....let people know they have an end game, then viewers will want to watch to see it through till the end.

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burnondakota@gmail.com
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In 20 years there is going to be an awesome movie by chris nolan based on heroes

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Maj
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Ok SylarISGood...3 episodes remain...Ill give it another chance..why not I am in fact a Heroes fan, and also because the ending of the Pass/Fail episode was entertaining where SAmuel demolished the town and Hiros fight with Adam was a must watch.  So maybe just maybe it can boil down to these final episodes.  AS LONG AS SAMUEL stays PISSED ill give him that chance. 

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smartster1983
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This was a weird episode. People’s interpretation on Samuel’s scenes with Vanessa will determine whether it was deemed good or not.

 

I do think that this is still a good show. A lot of people talk about there not being enough action and fight scenes, but I was always under the impression that this show was a drama. Correct me if I’m wrong though. I always thought any action was secondary.

 

I’ve heard many people talking about how disappointed they are that after all the build up before xmas, the reason given to us for Samuel’s end game was him being scorned by Vanessa. I’ve been on a couple of threads and seen people complaining that the reason was weak and not a justifiable reason to wanna destroy the world.

 

I kinda saw it slightly different. I thought that all season the writers had tried to show Samuel as someone who was very manipulative, cunning, proactive and calculated in his approach to gathering specials and bringing his plan into reality.

 

He was someone who had been ridiculed (his scene as a child with Joseph) since he was young for being different (not normal), and maybe cast aside as an outsider. The fact he was holed up in Coyote Sands would’ve shown him from the start that he wasn’t seen as equal. He may of understood from an early age that he wasn’t the same as others and the carnival (however marketed to prospective new members) is just a way of keeping the specials hidden… i.e. safe. ‘The only way to be safe is to hide…’

 

He seemed like a bit of a bum before Joseph died. Drinking heavily, having no real ambition and possibly feeling controlled, manipulated and trapped by being at the carnival.

 

The fact that he’d lusted after Vanessa since he was a kid could possibly show his obsessive nature and addictive personality (drinking alcohol straight from the bottle in the morning/afternoon). We can clearly see that once he has a plan, he’ll follow that plan to completion regardless of ANY consequences.  It just seems to me like making this home wasn’t just the most important thing because he loved Vanessa, but also possibly because it would show (himself) that he could be accepted by other humans, as a human himself. At this point it seemed like he was prepared to hide away and live out the rest of his life in secrecy.

 

Vanessa went on to spurn his idea, (which was obvious), but not his advances. It seemed to me that if he’d bought her an ice cream and just asked if she wanted to give the relationship a proper go, she may of said yes. But it looked like he’d built up the idea (cottage, valleys blah blah) so much in his own head that it had turned from her childhood fantasy into his own full blown Narnia dream. The fact that the idea was rejected seemed more important than the fact she clearly (by trying to kiss him after) would considered being with him in a rented apartment in Iota. It looked to me like he’d decided that society was rejecting him (along with his ideas) and asking him to yet again conform to how society felt he should live.

 

His speech to the waitress seemed to be the same thing. Not him necessarily talking specifically about her, but more about her kind and how they’ve made him feel over the course of his life (rather than that specific scene). The Government, Danko, Joseph, Coyote, HRG, visitors to the carnival (even though it was his home)l, Arnold, Vanessa all seem to be people who Samuel feels have wronged him because of what he is.

 

Basically when I look just at the scene and how Samuel reacted to Vanessa’s decision it all seems far fetched, over dramatic and unnecessary. But when I look at the bigger picture and try to put the scene in context with how Samuel’s life seems to have gone, it makes more sense that in his own warped mind society has wronged him from the start and now he has decided to almost be a hero of his own and stand up against those who have tried to persecute him.

 

The only thing that has still got me baffed is why he had this obsession with gathering specials. At that point he very simply wanted to build a cottage on some grass and live with Vanessa. Was he planning to keep all those specials around so that he could put on pretty ‘earthquake shows’ in stead of having foreplay with Vanessa. This is the only bit I didn’t understand. I get the bit about him having some sort’ve uncontrollable urge to be around specials. But he went to some ridiculous lengths to do this. I’m hoping somewhere down the line, this gets explained.

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sylarISgood
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Maj: you know it makes sense:)

smartster: some good and valid points.

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Maj
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I enjoyed reading your points smartster1983 and some of those made me think, but one I just realized is that if they were to divulge into Samuels personal story with Vanessa they should have done this in the beginning of the season.  1) It could have gave us some background on the guy 2) the break up would have been a perfect setup to his true villain attributes to come out.  Think of this.  Lets say we had moved this to the beginning of the season and we would on and off see flashbacks of him and Vanessa and then have an episode where this happened and she breaks his heart.  He gets super pissed right...now enter mohinders scene where hes talking to jospeh about samuels power and how it grows around specials.  Samuel grabs a bottle begins drinking because of the break up, happens to walk by and over hear the conversation, and this giving him that extra push to kill joseph and collect specials in a dark way.  I mean they couldve easily moved this Vanessa thing early on to build his character and then after the Hiatus progress the story of his diabolical plot.  The final scene before hiatus couldve been him demolishing the village and walking toward the camera as sinister as possible.  I wouldve shit my pants if I saw that.  But hey 3 episodes left maybe the writers have something in store to knock us off our seats because their "Professionals" (yeh right!) 

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I tend to agree with Maj on this one. Before the Vanessa storyline came to light, we already saw an angry, evil, manipulative Samuel. All his encounter with Vanessa did was a) provide motivation for something he already had motive to do (and thus is redundant and poor writing) and b) weaken what was shaping up to be a great villain. You pointed out the shortcoming in the storytelling smartster1983, and this why was Samuel collecting people with abilities if all he wanted to do was impress vanessa with a cottage in the valley? As you said, he went to "ridiculous lengths" to do this. If that is explained in the last three episodes of the season, I'll be ecstatic. But right now it just comes across as a lazy plot device. 

I said earlier and will say again, as a flashback, this episode would have been great. Think Company Man from S1. But to insert it as part of the current timeline at this juncture of the season is the kind of thing I would have expected in S2 with a writer's strike looming and pressure to get something down. It's just out of place where it is, and has done a disservice to what was a pretty solid season.

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Maj
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I agree Kal15..This was just redundant to a already determined villain.  At this point Vanessa was a tangent brought in to keep us viewers from knowing Samuels plot.   Which I feel was a major cop out.  I mean this is the time we should know how evil Samuel is, what his intentions are, and what are heroes are going to do to stop him.  Instead I have to wonder about Samuels love life.  I mean ok it wouldve been nice in the beginning, but now out of all times espacially with 3 episodes left the suspense should be at the peak of whats to come but its way below the mark.  As the ending happened and Samuel demolished the city the suspense level for me finally jumped.  Now again I must say that with 3 episodes left everything boils down to this.  If they even remotely show Vanessa, I hate to say it.  This will be a true let down for me.

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sylarISgood
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and for me too maj. the only reason vanessa should be brought back is for samuel to kill her, to place himself forever on the darkside.

the countdown begins...

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