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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.
February 7th, 2013 9:52 AM
@huisclothes,
Why would Jane adjust his behavior? He doesn't unless he's conning. He'll adjust for Lorelei because he wants something. He has what he wants from Lisbon now. I think Jane believes that Lisbon will have his back with RJ, just as she had Bosco's. I think he realizes she could arrest him, but that she won't because RJ isn't going to be able to be caught following procedure. I'm inclined to think erosion between them could happen if he followed in her father's footsteps. I think the writers could toy with us by introducing situations that allow doubt. I think Lorelei generates feelings of mistrust in Lisbon. If Kirkland starting hanging around Lisbon that could create feelings of conflict as well. Jane's only "love" at this point is RJ; there is no reason for the leopard to domesticate himself. If he decides Lisbon is more important, then he'll adjust. He's too prideful.
February 7th, 2013 9:27 AM
Hmmmm, you're right, @Mimi. Sophie does virtually confess her feelings for Jane in the present, and it has to be that she's carrying those feelings forward from the past because it's too unlikely they developed just in the time of that episode. That's one mighty countertransference!
February 7th, 2013 4:57 AM
by the way in ep 4*24 there are two incoherences. first, when jane is in the church with lisbon, suddenly his eyes is not blue but in the next scene where he says he loves you, it's blue again (bruised I mean).
secondly, when he's in the car and looks at RJ in the reer view mirror, we can clearly see that "RJ"/wainright wears a sweater, while when they later open the car's door we see he's wearing a shirt.
February 7th, 2013 4:22 AM
I think he hasn't even realised he loves her yet. I believe he's protecting himself so much and for many reasons doesn't want to get in a relationship. also she's his boss so uncalled for. it's clear that he finds her attractive, we can see that in the epi where he has amnesia or when he has hallucinations in epi 5*2.
about Lorelei it all depends wether he knew she was a RJ minion or not. I think he thought she was attractive and wanted to spend a good time. he didnt seem to care too much, prefering watching the animal show rather than jumping at her but he might have been playing her too. also the question is, why the animal show? why did they decide to put that in the scene?
and about RJ the he's MA.. could be many things, like Mashburn, Many people, or even masqued.. we'll see
February 7th, 2013 4:17 AM
wow all these posts while I slept.
so the kisses- well to me Sophie was completely in love with Jane while he was not. I think he was mainly grateful as she helped him. Maybe he felt sthg for her as we see in the flashbacks but he was vulnerable. It's clear Jane can see she's in love with him, her face when he kisses her says it all. Also she says she always falls for emotionally unavailable men, thus him as well. clear to me. Erica: there's lust, I think he's attracted to her beauty and her manipulative skills. Kristina: I think he does feel sthg for her but it's not lust like for Erica it's affection I'd say more than sexual attraction. and Lisbon well at first nothing much, she's his boss after all but spending his days with her makes him grow fond of her more and more but it's very subtle.
February 7th, 2013 1:00 AM
actually thinking that if there is a next season, red john in custody and on trial could be interesting.
February 7th, 2013 12:55 AM
@km yes. think you're right about jane needing lisbon to love him. he's like a child who's loved unconditionally (very much the way he described his wife). but he's like mozart in the movie amadeus -- a gifted brat she's proud of but has to put up with. she puts out the fires, she cleans up the messes. when i say "he's not cowed by her," i mean he hasn't adjusted his behavior when he pissed her off. he did let her in the lair and i loved that. but it's a rare occurrence. we haven't heard any talk lately about her stopping jane from harming red john and arresting jane if he did. i think this will be a big issue for the end of the season. what would he have to do to make her abandon him? or what would she have to do? she said if she had real proof that he broke lorelei out of prison, she would put him in cuffs. what if he kills red john and she arrests jane? what if she arrests red john and jane breaks with her?
February 7th, 2013 12:54 AM
@huisclothes - I think he did know before he slept with her. I think her bailing him out of jail and showing up at his hotel based on a 5 minute conversation in which he came off as crazy or at least a violent criminal confirmed his suspicions. And I think she was sent both as a test and as a lure (RJ showing Jane how his "gifts" can make Jane's life better.) And, perhaps she was also sent to f*ck Jane on Red John's behalf. I don't personally believe that, but I know many others do.
But these are just my opinions. Yours are clearly different but just as valid. The fans of the show seem split on this issue. I know one of the writers said on twitter he believed that, of course, Jane had to have known. Then another said he didn't think Jane knew. We'll never know for sure.
February 7th, 2013 12:40 AM
@watcher. we're friends. i do agree to disagree. so forgive my final rant. so sleeping with lorelei was something jane did for the same reason he resumed being a conman, and hit policemen and wore his shirt out? -- all to advertise to red john how low he'd fallen? so did he know she was an emissary from red john or did he not know? was prepared to sleep with any not-very-fussy girl who knocked on his door? -- since it would send a message to red john. i don't think lorelei was sent as a test of jane's degradation. i think she was sent to f--k jane on rj's behalf. it was about rj having his way not about jane passing a final test. here's my story and i'm stickin' to it. lonely beaten man. sharp girl who's been around the block. they had sex. it was just what the doctor ordered. next morning, he was genuinely thrown for a loop. then he regrouped and realized his work had paid off.
February 7th, 2013 12:27 AM
@ huisclothes,
Yes, debunk it quickly. Or see what he may be missing. Let's hope she has more than her gob smacked interest as she muses over his obsession. Let's hope the reason she can't see the bullseye is because it is on her back too.
February 7th, 2013 12:23 AM
@ huisclothes
"i don't see lisbon as having any real teeth when it comes to jane. she tosses jibes at him and disapproves of him but nothing sticks. she's gaga for him. there are no consequences to her disapproval. he's not even slightly cowed by her"
Your observations don't mean that she doesn't see through him. And why would he need to play nice with Lisbon? He doesn't need information from her. He doesn't need her to choose him over RJ or the CBI. He needs her to have his back. He needs her to bail him out. He needs her to love him, to see the good despite his actions, no matter what. Lastly, why would he need to be cowed by her? He doesn't. He did let her in, though. I think he knew he was endanger of pushing her too far. Tis my 2ยข.
February 7th, 2013 12:12 AM
#huisclothes - Yes, I can go either way on the handshake. She may have let something slip in a moment of anger, or it may be information she specifically planted as Red John ordered. I do find it suspicious though. What I find shocking is that Jane has absolutely no doubt. I mean, how can he be 100% sure about that, especially considering that he knows Red John is always a step or two ahead of him?
February 7th, 2013 12:05 AM
@km and watcher. glad you brought this up. we were all talking about this handshake thing a few hundred pages back. still can't believe lorelei didn't know what she was saying. lisbon does have more straightforward ways of dealing with things. the hammer on the puzzle box. punching out the guy who insisted jane get charges dropped against him.
trouble is, when it comes to the handshake, all lisbon's said is some variation on "i know what you're doing, you're fretting about those handshakes and not helping me solve the murder of the week." if she's going to debunk the handshake obsession, it better be soon. when jane did his little math speech with her in his lair, she was agog. "gee, mr wizard, you're wonderful." hope this doesn't turn out to be a real groan-er.
February 7th, 2013 12:01 AM
@huisvlothes - I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this Lorelei question. It's like we watched two completely different scenes!
You said exactly one thing I agree with when you said "it's not wild passion". That was certainly true. And a woman doesn't show up at the motel room of a man she spoke to for 5 minutes if she is looking for Chinese food. To not sleep with her would have clearly indicated to her and Red John that he hadn't given up as he was pretending to. He was playing her.
February 6th, 2013 11:50 PM
i don't see lisbon as having any real teeth when it comes to jane. she tosses jibes at him and disapproves of him but nothing sticks. she's gaga for him. there are no consequences to her disapproval. he's not even slightly cowed by her. re: the motel scene. jane shields lorelei from the animal footage. then he stops and just looks at her. he moves his head forward a tiny bit. it's the classic first-kiss-on-a-date thing. (guy leans forward. girl decides whether or not to respond.) then lorelei puts her hand on his face and kisses him. he's tentative. it's not wild passion (he's tired and beaten) but it's a warm body. it's healing. he's not playing her. if he knew, why would he need to play along by having sex right away? wouldn't he first take her out for chinese food to see what info he could glean? isn't exposing your privates immediately to rj's moll a little draconian as a first gambit?
February 6th, 2013 11:31 PM
@KM, I think you could be right about Lorelei being meant as a distraction. The handshake thing always seemed a little suspicious to me, and it has kept Jane's attention firmly focused on his list. And I agree Lisbon's way of solving problems is very complementary to Jane's. I don't recall who it was, but somebody made a comment recently than Jane sits around and waits for Red John to do something instead of actively investigating leads and interviewing friends & family of his accomplices and victims. I agree with that. Jane being so secretive about Red John has hurt the investigation in prior seasons. Hopefully that is changing and Lisbon's methods will play more of a role.
February 6th, 2013 11:22 PM
@ Watcher,
I do see Jane as playing Lorelei. But I also see Lorelei as the magician's girl and suspect that she is drawing Jane's attention from what it should be focused on. I'm willing to allow the idea that the shake hands was a slip up on her part in her fury, but think there is something more obvious or straight forward that he is missing. Maybe part of her purpose is to divide Jane's attention from Lisbon. Lisbon has a knack for solving puzzles differently from Jane and often in a more straight forward manner that I wish was being put to better use with the Lorelei / handshake situation / Red John mystery.
February 6th, 2013 10:30 PM
@ Watcher
I agree that Lisbon seems very on to him.
February 6th, 2013 10:26 PM
Continued. Darn cut off.
That the audience would know that Jane finds Lisbon physically attractive.
February 6th, 2013 9:53 PM
I love the "go to hell and pack a toothbrush" line! Yeah, Lisbon sees right through Jane most of the time. She may not always call him on it, but she knows. And I think he is USUALLY real with her. The only time he tries the act these days is when he wants to hide something. And she knows right away when he does.
He is playing a role with Lorelei. Of course he tells her he doesn't with her, because that is what she wants to believe. He just alters the role to fit the intended audience. He is a showman and they always strive to give the crowd what they want.
February 6th, 2013 9:38 PM
You may be right about the act. But, Lisbon has been calling him on his crap, being sarcastic, telling him to give a rest, and telling him to "go to hell and pack a toothbrush" this whole time. I think Lorelei wanted him to quit the cold read routine, and is more direct than Lisbon. Jane also wants Lorelei to trust him. I think that is part of why he lets her push him around. He may think he is giving her the upper hand, and he is still in control, but he could be fooled. And the over the top "Paddy" I saw as a swing. With working with adult abuse survivors I see that kind of swing, it is like a pendulum of excess before they become more stable. I guessed it was the con man/psychic in him that has been closed off needing to vent. Plus I think the writers wanted us to see the team disliking him and to give us evidence that Lisbon thinks that the generous, refined, compassionate, and no mark tagging Patrick has have always been there. Hence "That's not the real him", and to see him att
February 6th, 2013 9:29 PM
I think there was definitely a strong attraction between Jane and Sophie. I had noticed the same things about the hospital flashbacks, etc. I think it is not likely that they were lovers, but it is possible. Sophie has proven herself not to be highly concerned with ethics. And people sometimes reach out sexually in the depths of grief. Being so soon after his wife's death, I do think it is at least possible.
Agree with all of you that he was very attracted to Erica and showed real "heat' in his kisses with her.
I saw no heat with Lorelei. Agree with April that he was playing her. He was not enthusiastic at all in any of those scenes. And I disagree with huisclothes - Lorelei totally initiated all of the kisses- including the first one.
February 6th, 2013 9:20 PM
@entwife you're right. having a relationship with his therapist would have been difficult. especially because jane seems to gravitate toward being a man of mystery. as a psychic he cultivated that persona and sophie saw him stripped bare so he might be uncomfortable being around her. and while she reminded him of his weakness, he also, saw her clay feet. he told lisbon "she wouldn't lie to me." she did. there was an attraction there. she made it pretty clear how she felt. he cared about her but was disenchanted with her and wound up being the adult in the relationship.
February 6th, 2013 9:03 PM
@km. lisbon has definitely seen more and more of him though it's interesting how closed he still is. think some of it is to protect her but a lot of it, as lorelei pointed out, is an act. when he confessed to lorelei, "yes, i play a role but not with you," i think that's true. lorelei throws him off balance. orders him around. is sarcastic to him. tells him to give the act a rest. she sees through him -- maybe relates to his outlaw background. maybe she calls rj on his crap too.
i loved fugue in red, but they made jane a bit of a jackass. the snarky talk about the wedding ring. the innuendo about twins when he saw the table of busty girls, groping the girl, the diamond bracelet for the doxie-was that a thank you for signing him out or for sex or as a way to get her to have sex? the lisbon stuff was funny. but aside from that, why make him so borscht belt? he was a high class psychic before and a rather refined kid. is his id corny?
February 6th, 2013 8:06 PM
@ Entwife,
I think you, huisclothes, and I are all saying that we saw attraction between Patrick and Sophie and regret when they parted. And, I see the same imbalance as you do. Jane needs to be with some equal on the psychological level, someone who can grasp intimately from their own life the depth of pain he lives with, and not allow him to remain stuck or down when he stumbles. Hence why she needs to love the worst side too and be stronger than him. He found her once in his wife. He has been fortunate to find her again in Lisbon. The questions are 1) when will RJ end, and 2) will he allow himself to be loved like that again? You can't bank grief and as QE2 is quoted "Grief is the price we pay for love."