The Mentalist > The Mentalist Review: Narrowing the List > Comments Page 35
@watcher. i think there was heat from both lorelei and patrick in that kiss. that and a whole bunch of other stuff. she was looking to him for guidance, trusting him. quite different than the brittle woman in the car who told him to give the act a rest. he took over. he was masterful. she's used to being controlled by red john but not by someone doing it with some concern for her well-being. and i saw heat in his eyes (simon can make them flash just as he can make himself look crazy with his eyes). he was happy to have ended on a good note with her, saw the gratitude in her face and pushed her away saying, "you gotta go." they parted with more of a bond between them. doesn't mean it'll last. lord knows the writers sometimes serve us an old character tabula rasa. i.e. hafner. in his first episode, when patrick asked lisbon about him, she said i've heard he's tough, by the book. didn't sound like lisbon really knew him.
@ rationalgal. simon is the perfect film (or tv) actor, it's all in his face, in his eyes. i love when he uses it comedically.
some minor examples i've loved. in jolly red elf, when the psychotic nurse has him strapped in a chair about to inject him with a lethal dose of alcohol and she asks, do you know the place on the body coroners never look? his eyes flicker down to his crotch.
the way he looks at the hotel manager in crimson ticket when the fbi guys accuse the guy of the murder. the way he looks at the hotel maid when she talks about the manager groping girls.
yes, i so agree about elementary. one ep and that was it for me. the neurasthenic detective who looks hygenically challenged. and lucy liu. a stiff, always. may cbs never have a day's luck with it.
@watcher actually i think it's about $450k an ep. (though 435 or 485 also ring true to me) simon could use that $35k to buy rebecca more really nice peasant blouses. i'm just protective of him. even watching his budget.
also, watcher, if the show goes on, we will miss you. still hold with my patrick didn't know opinion. he recovered well and it got him closer to red john but i don't think he saw her as an emissary when she knocked on that door or even after he interrogated her. i know the waitress posting bail gave him pause but i truly think he felt a connection and had to grant her the idea that she did too. so he ultimately decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth.
when patrick talks about being cold and hard and deceitful, he knows that's what's necessary. but when he can't walk the line, when he slips, misjudges the situation, that's where the drama is. anything else is melodrama. batman.
Cont. I hope Elementary flops on Sunday (also on Thursday). It would serve CBS right for messing with the best series they ever ran.
Entwife: Interesting thing about Marten/Martin. Either spelling could be beautifully symbolic if we wanted to go that deep. However, I doubt the writers would bother doing that on purpose, given that relatively few viewers would catch on, and not even appreciate it if it was explained. Explaining all the deep symbolisms we can think up would make for a truly messy ending. It's fun though. I can think of a really spectacular symbolism but - nah - I'll let it go.
huisclothes, you hit it right on in your description of Simon Baker's ability to project his character's thoughts with just his facial expression. We really can see exactly what he's thinking from moment to moment. What an exceptional actor! It's what makes the series so fascinating. On one of my DVDs of Simon's movies the commentary noted how Simon could be difficult to work with because for one of his scenes he said he didn't need to say the lines - he could do it with his eyes. He certainly can! And yes, CBS is running Elementary (probably the pilot) in place of Mentalist on Sunday. Are they trying to see which show viewers like better on that night? On yesterday's Nielson ratings for the top 20, Mentalist was #11 and Elementary was not listed at all. I watched the pilot for Elementary and it drove me nuts watching the Sherlock character. He was a nervous, jerky mess - part of his character's drug problem I think. I never watched it again. I hope Elementary flops on Sunday (also on
@huisclothes - CBS already pays Simon $3 million per episode. He can afford to pay the $35,000 himself. After all, it is a Simon Baker star, not a Patrick Jane star. No reason CBS should pay it. But a nice recognition for Simon regardless.
Joylene - I agree. This is my last season of watching Red John. If they don't end it this season, I will not watch at all next year if it is renewed. I can't blame you for stopping a little sooner. They have stretched that story out way too long.
I agree with those of you who believe Jane does not have feeling for Lorelei. He knew her game from the start. He is just trying to manipulate her and get her to trust him. That kiss at the end of Red Sails in the Sunset had no heat. He pushed her away almost the moment she made contact. He was clearly not feeling any lust then or when he yawned as she was naked on the beach. That was VERY different from the Erica kiss as someone already pointed out. He also was reluctant to kiss her in the interrogation room. She had to bully him into it. He most likely thinks of RJ and the butchered bodies of his wife and child when he looks at her...not conducive to romance. I doubt he ever forgets she is a cold blooded killer and Red John minion.
Of course Jane knew Lorelei was working for Red John before he slept with her. It was obvious. A waitress he talked to once for 5 minutes bails him out of jail (bail had to have been thousands of $ - cocktail waitresses don't make enough to have or risk that kind of money.) Then she shows up at his motel room uninvited. Jane is attractive, but not even he thinks he is THAT attractive. Besides, Lorelei is also attractive and has probably been with guys even more attractive than Jane. Keep in mind all the crazy stuff he said to her about murdering a man and being happy when he remembers it. He knew the second he opened his motel room door. His "surprise" when she told him about RJ was an act. If he had really given up, he would be expected to be surprised. He acted as he was expected to...nothing else to it.
@entwife no argument here. even if lorelei's just leaving breadcrumbs. she'll play a pivotal role.
for anyone who cares, simon's about to get his star on hollywood blvd. kind of like the who's who list -- they send you a big congratulatory letter and then tell you it costs $35k. hope cbs coughed it up.
speaking of cbs, the bastards are running an episode of elementary after the Super Bowl. no mentalist. bad sign.
I read some of the comments expecting to see others who agreed with me...nope! Don't care, I've quit watching the show because I am sick and tired of the Red John story line. Sunday, I watched until the 'face' on the barn showed up. Then I stopped it and deleted it. I just won't watch another program where they talk about Red John...enough already.
But, I still stand on Lorelei the siren luring Patrick to his destruction.
Well, @rationalgal, your caution about symbolism may be well-founded. I see you spell Lorelei's last name as Martins and ImDB confirms that. Fumble, everybody. Sorry. I thought it was Martens. Different class of animal. A martin is a type of swallow. The symbology is more that they were often the first to land on a ship that had been out to sea for long periods of time. So martins came to symbolize being close to/finding your way home. Still relevant (if Jane's road home is the path to Red John), but not nearly as satisfying. Never mind.
agree with rationalgal about parsing the symbolism in the series. lorelei as a name is probably as deep as i would go.
simon is a wonderful actor because he can communicate so much with one look. and patrick is just the character to put simon through his paces. he has so many thoughts and emotions, some conflicting. so the kiss with erica - lust, surprise at his lust, guilt. sitting in the car with lisbon when she warns him about lorelei. he tells lisbon he knew all along that lorelei was a plant. lisbon looks away and his face shows -- did she buy that?, could she be right?, is she jealous of lorelei? the kiss goodbye to lorelei -- do i now have a hold on her?, are we parting friends?, i'm surprised i still like her kiss, i'm worried about her, i hope she comes back. as always, that's just me.
Cont. That allows it to be unaccountable, shielded from investigation, and secretive, making it a good plot device for creating mystery. I expect that RJ is using Visualize behind the scenes to recruit minions from among its gullible emotionally needy members, hide his dirty work, and infiltrate law enforcement, all for the love of power and control. I also have to assume that Stiles is being used as RJ's front man - perhaps unaware of RJ's true identity and mission. Given the generally very high quality of the writing throughout the series, I have confidence the finale will be one big blockbuster of an ending.
@entwife re: wow. your comment about jane sleeping with lorelei as the ultimate signal to red john that he'd given up the quest -- by giving up his virginity. that even if lorelei was just some random floozy who wanted jane (i can relate), the omnipotent red john would know that jane had given up. i think that's the most cogent argument for jane's night with lorelei being a cold considered act on his part. but to quote jane: "well done, grace, wrong i expect, but very well reasoned." (joke) i don't think he knew that lorelei was a red john cohort. i think he's was beaten to a pulp, lonely and took the comfort she offered. he interrogated her pretty assiduously and then, there came a time when he just had to say, wtf. he woke up grateful then shocked then victorious. a fallible patrick is just more interesting. bruno said "she comes to him at a low ebb." that's my take on it -- but i tip my hat to yours. smart.
Lots of great ideas here, but it's best not to get too deep on the symbolism. The writers aim at the general public so symbols as clues have to be fairly obvious. "Lorelei" is easy to ID as a destructive siren but "martin" perhaps not so much even tho it fits. Lisbon's cross is a traditional symbol of sacrifice, which she has already done a lot of for her brothers and with Jane, and will probably do a big one at the end. Jane's hallucinations were also pretty clear about his Hamlet-like mental state. Of course he loves Lisbon. He doesn't dare let that rise to a fully conscious level because it could weaken his desire for revenge, and that is all-consuming to Jane, even to causing hurt to Lisbon by having sex with Lorelei. As he told Todd Johnson, to get revenge you have to be hard, cold, dishonest, not let anyone know what's in your heart. He's that all right. As for Visualize being a church, yes it is (tho called a cult) with global outreach, wealth and influence. That allows it to ac
The last episode when Heffner walked out of office what did he mean when he said we still friends ... Or sumtin to that effect .. He never answered the question if he was part of visualize the time of the murders .... It would be to obvious if he was red John .... Y didn't Teresa tell Patrick about what happen with Heffner?
It's really steessful, I hope they can find rj.
@anitraward1 After realizing that Jane cuts off his feelings for Lisbon almost before they have a chance to surface, your comment about Jane getting quieter and quieter, signaling a coming storm or breakdown have added meaning to me now. I've noticed it, too.
This is what I think about the Charlotte hallucination. As his hallucination, daughter Charlotte is a projection of Patrick Jane himself. His interactions with her are him encountering himself. Charlotte (Patrick) says of Lisbon: She's cute, I like her, Have you two . . . ? (Jane cuts her off, stops that train of thought). In the hospital, Charlotte asks Jane Is there anyone who really knows you and he nods immediately and calls out to Lisbon, Lisbon, Lisbon, Lisbon. When he awakes and sees Lisbon, he calls her Belladonna (pretty lady). In the ambulance he tells her Teresa, you can call me Patrick (get familiar with me). Lisbon tells Jane later, Maybe your subconscious sent you your daughter. Yes, it did. And it told you and all of us how you really feel about Lisbon. And that you cut off and ignore your physical feelings, attraction, love interest to her any moment they surface in your mind. And that's how Jane feels about Lisbon. Deep.
I don't think that will happen. Bruno Heller said that the powers that be would give them enough notice to come up with a good ending. I would love to talk with the cast or have them have a after series interview about the whole series. A Q&A after session. I never cared about a show ending before but this show for me was so good that I would love to hear about their whole process. I would love to hear what this show ment to them. I would also like to know from them why they even cared enough to consider what the viewer's thought. It's been a real gas! Or gaslighting!
Wat happens if season ends and the series ends with them just revealing one of rj's associates. Every believes that rj is cawt and the last scene of the series is a murder with the rj face on the wall. I'm really stressed the producer/writer will do that. What's your thawts on this?
KM, now that I think about it again, you got to the very core of the Jane / Lisbon relationship. You nailed it! This is why I said that the whole series has to be brought forward.
Cont.-but Jane is fighting with himself because of Red John!
Now, I'm going back and view a clue. The conversation he had with his daughter about Lisbon, is what he really thinks about Lisbon. I think you all may get the lovefest you were hoping for!!!!!
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