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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.The Mentalist Clips
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Jane: This is Red John. Lisbon: How can you tell? Jane: Because when it's him I can feel it.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 29th, 2013 3:26 PM
And I guess that's the problem, the story archs themselves aren't as big a problem as I might have thought the more I looked back, its just they are so repetitive and Bruno looks at the idea of showing what RJ is about and how he operates, thinks and his style for something that should just be done out of force and cramming it down our throats at the very end just to say it's there. There are shows built around a man vs the bad guy arch but the focus is often towards the bad guy's side and watching his side work and relating and understanding them. It's just a problem in priorities and need for ratings, I guess.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 29th, 2013 3:21 PM
But we never have gotten any insight into that past, anything into what makes RJ friends RJ friends in terms of their lifestyle and past. We have never seen scenes really of RJ friends working together and we haven't seen alot of scenes directly of RJ moles "moling", doing things deceptively and behind everybody's back in their own world. We don't know anything about that world. All we see at the end is these troubled criminals get caught doing a variety of things and it goes back to the same pt of just showing how powerful RJ is. Its too easy to associate all these moles as one. It's an issue of quantity over quality to insert my favorite cliche. There is too much of a mole presence in the CBI, but the show has designed it so everybody we see on RJ's side is either directly in law enforcement or directly antagonizes Jane or some other character. We don't see the moles interacting, we don't know anything about the other side, the RJ side, and how they live and their greater goal.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 29th, 2013 3:16 PM
the writers knew when the introduced him and Visualize they were going to be a big part of this RJ theme. But the pt was to only introduce them and show what potential influence they might have and most importantly throw off viewers, intrigue them, and make them think all at the same time. If you want to say they could have brought that idea back into play more as a general idea of giving more RJ information, that's fine and that's a separate argument, but that leads to the bigger pt in that the show has introduced too many elements that are far too similar. Mashburn, Stiles, Hafner, O'Laughlin, Kristina, whomever else you want to add, they all kind of serve the same kind of purpose in many ways. Add drama to the RJ storyline with short term stories the show doesn't really have any interest in expanding or can't because of the nature of them. It's all about the idea that these are current threats who have had muddled, troubled pasts.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 29th, 2013 3:10 PM
We'll agree to disagree about the plausibility of Stiles knowing RJ, I get whatever one is saying but it just is blatantly flawed in my humble opinion. As the person who brought up the problems in the writing a couple weeks ago that kind of lead a entourage of criticism of the writers, I feel kind of bad here. We could go on and on about the problems with the writers, we could rank the biggest problems in the story if you wanted to and there would be alot of them, but I'll back off my onslaught a bit and say this: some of these holes aren't really holes. Shows have to be selective in what they pursue. I never saw that big a problem with the Kristina storyline back then for ex, there just wasn't that much else to show. The pt was to show the power of Red John and the unique ways he can expand his influence. And the purpose of Stiles was to draw an aura of mystery about the RJ plot, add a dimension to it but really just introduce it.
January 29th, 2013 3:04 PM
@ huisclothes, No worries, you're welcome. I could use more tea too.
January 29th, 2013 2:32 PM
@km thanks for your comment. i should have had another cup of tea.
January 29th, 2013 2:24 PM
Did anyone else notice that the waitress at Ella's cafe looked enough like Lorelei to be her mother? Struck me right away. May mean nothing . . .
January 29th, 2013 2:15 PM
@husiclothes, it's not a question of the writer's not being as smart as Jane. They're not as smart as the viewers. Either that, or they think we are all idiots so make no effort to write anything that makes sense. You don't have to be brilliant (or a mentalist or detective) to realize Stiles knew a lot about Red John - the fact that he told Jane where to find Kristina pretty much gave that away. A 6 year old child could have figured it out and asked a few questions about it.
Feint and proacman also make good points that illustrate the same thing. Here's another question- why did they not interview Lorelei's mother before she broke out of prison? If she wasn't giving up info, maybe the family would have some clue (men she was dating, friends, etc). Same with Rebecca and other known RJ moles. They interview family and co-workers on just about every case they get - except Red John minions. The writing is just very bad. There is no excuse for it.
January 29th, 2013 2:06 PM
Cont. Practical examples: Mashburn was enrolled at Uni on the East Coast and their transcripts/school activities that indicate he was involved and present in campus life, thus he is moved off the list. Lame example, but I hope that explains it better.
January 29th, 2013 2:01 PM
@huisclothes My thoughts was that Visualize is refusing to provide records so that any positive identifications are thwarted. Then that leaves them to determine negative presence at Elliston Farm. Jane and Lisbon (sounds like a job for Grace's talents) could look for windows of possible presence at Elliston in the 409, thus ruling out any that could be confirmed located outside of the Elliston Farm time frame: incarcerated; detox center; confirmed school enrollment.... Jane will need to find those on his list that could possibly be at the farm, hence by determining those who were not and could not be at the farm can be skimmed from the list. Grey area people would be those whose presence could go to and from the farm, background check shows them within the physical boundary and with gaps of being off radar/unaccounted for. Cont.
January 29th, 2013 1:55 PM
i feel like for someone who loves the show and loves patrick more than life itself, i'm doing a lot of trashing today. if they stay on for a season, i will be so happy to deal with every hole they throw at me.
that being said, in red john's friends, when patrick gets the call in the motel room after jared's murder, the voice that laughs demonically is quite male and resonant. not at all red john's capote-ish sound.
January 29th, 2013 1:43 PM
Yeah, there are ALL too many holes in the plot from the first seasons. Why didn't they investigate Jared Renfrew any further? Locate the call after his death, figure out the meaning of the message on the wall, etc. Why didn't Jane start investigating Stiles after the Kristina Frye case, or ask Rosalind Harker more questions. The woman had an intimate relationship with Red John, there HAS to be DNA somewhere in her house. It might be they try to close all these subjects once they reveal Jane's current investigations and suspects but I'm afraid many things will never be explained.
January 29th, 2013 1:23 PM
@euterpe with patrick, they've created a character we expect to be smarter than us, smarter than anyone. might be the writers aren't as smart as the character. they can't resolve the threads as brilliantly as we expect patrick would. so patrick disappoints us.
January 29th, 2013 1:06 PM
Because Jane is too dumb to even ask the question if Stiles knew/knows or has any info. on who RJ is. (I blame the writing) This is my biggest grip...Jane doesn't ask the questions that he should ask when things are stareing him in the face.
January 29th, 2013 1:06 PM
@proacman yes. absolutely. this is a point that's been brought up many times on this site in discussing other episodes. that's a hole you could drive a truck through. let alone why didn't jane dog stiles for an explanation of how he knew kristina's location? or more like jane, trick him into revealing it?
January 29th, 2013 1:01 PM
@euterpe i think the playwright you're quoting is ibsen.
@km great idea about looking into the backgrounds for the remaining 409's. still can't figure out why jane thinks--with the elliston farm, he'll be able to narrow that down. how so? unless there's some trove of info in the file folders cooper gave him. but they told him they're not giving up membership info. help.
January 29th, 2013 12:58 PM
What makes no sense to me is that earlier this season Jane asked Stiles to return the favor he owed Jane. If Stiles knows who RJ is then why didn't Jane ask for him to tell him who RJ is.
January 29th, 2013 12:44 PM
I agree the writers fall short in many respects. It reminds me of an author’s quote I once read about playwriting, but I think it applies to any form of story writing. It went something like “If you put a pistol on the mantle in the first act, you’d better have it go off before the end of the third.” In other words, it is bad writing to introduce plot events and then just forget about them. If you are not clever enough to explain them, then don’t introduce them in the first place.
January 29th, 2013 12:02 PM
Guest, I agree, especially about the Kristina/Stiles link. Jane never pursued that, which is incomprehensible to me. That specific incident is one of the biggest pet peeves I have about the show. It makes no sense at all. We are supposed to just believe Jane has all these amazing abilities & is so brilliant, but he never follows up on the most obvious clue in the history of the case???
Fans always say how great the writers are. I totally disagree. Yes, they are good at the interpersonal stuff, but they are in some cases below average when it comes to the actual case.
January 29th, 2013 11:51 AM
All of this will come to nothing. If the team was smart and investigated all of the things that were similiar or related to each RJ case, they could have fiqured out who Red John was a long time ago. They find clues and then forget about them. They never investigate anything or make any connections to the people involved. This is one dumb law enforcement team. Jane/team should have looked into Visualize a long time ago when Stiles handed him the location of Kristina Frye. That should have told him that RJ was connected with them a long time ago. Dumb/lazy writing with no direction on where to take this story. I use to love the mentalist, but it is going no where.
January 29th, 2013 11:33 AM
@KM, I love your sleuthing approach! That could net a lot of information and leads!
January 29th, 2013 11:26 AM
@ huisclothes Not to mention that they have the files that Visualize sent over at the beginning of the episode when they thought there was a chance that the three were members of Visualize and they wanted justice for them. Those files may have the names of individuals too.
Rank: Recurring Character
January 29th, 2013 11:22 AM
@Watcher -- Hey, you said it much better!
January 29th, 2013 11:22 AM
@ huisclothes ¿Es posible that Jane and Lisbon could cross reference the 409's background history with a dispearance during that window with high school/college transcripts, employment records, arrest records for drug posession (the priest said many were ex-addicts), drug/alcohol treatment centers (ex-addicts), extended family....? It seems possible they could determine a blank space in someone's history, but not necessarily confirm that the individual was a member of Visualize, just a gap where they went off the radar or where in some trouble; then gather images of those individuals and see if the locals recognize them from working at the Red Barn or any of the now failed communes/farm locations. Just a few thoughts sans tea.
January 29th, 2013 11:05 AM
@Keith- sorry, I basically repeated your post. I hadn't read up to the most recent before I posted.