The Mentalist > The Mentalist Review: The Hunt for Volker > Comments Page 16
Huisclothes-I don't think Jane is an atheist. I think he is mad at God for what happened to his family. Because of the way he grew up he probably was not spoon fed a specific religion and can reason with God in his mind differently then a person raised with set religious rules. Lisbon for instance was raised Catholic and is bound by those rules in her thinking and the way she prays as she demonstrated in Strawberries and Creme 1. Jane is more of a free thinker and weighs logically the whole idea of God with no boundries attached. He does not understand why a God with so much power would allow such horrible things to happen. This could be why he chases Red John so vehemently. Jane knows you can not apply any type of logical ideology to who or what God is. So, being human and unbound he will just seek his own revenge. Red John and Jane both seem to be unbound in their thinking. One good and one bad or does it really come down to being the same thing in the ideology of their thinking. Th
Just asking the question takes me back to the pilot. Did Jane guess some right thigs about Red John on that talk show? Red John may have been angered more by something Jane got right as opposed to what he got wrong. Red John acts as though he is lonely. He connects with Jane on an intellectual level and shows an affection for Jane like a father would for a son, i.e., keep up the good work.....Red John wants Jane with him side by side. He acts like Jane is his prodigy.
Huisclothes-I have to disagree with you when it comes to Red John having homoerotic feelings for Jane. I think what we are seeing is Red John's arousal of Jane's intellect and the fact the Jane even cares enough to pursue him to the point that he has. I think Red John in his twisted mine takes the attention as being somethine else. Red John has killed alot of people and Jane is the only one pursuing him. I'm sure Red John finds this intriquing. These two have been playing this cat and mouse game for so long that it's become a bad habit for both of them. It's like Stokholm Syndrome in reverse for Red John. Red John seems to need Janes attention, why?
@b&w&r. i think patrick is pretty rational. well...going into that abandoned hotel on his own in red sky at morning was irrational. should have waited for lisbon. and getting erica out of jail wasn't rational at all but it was fun. usually he has to make his own fun but with erica, he had someone to horse around with. love her as i do, lisbon can be rather heavy going. sure you have some examples. in thinking about it, i'd call patrick consistent. he's outlined his goals and his behavior (in my memory) is consistent with achieving those goals.
how he perceives it and justifies it and considers it rational, I think that's one of the open question marks of the story that there's not necessarily a right answer to of is he rational? His idea of what's rational in his pursuit of a serial killer, it's an ever changing idea worth monitoring and there's no concrete answer either way. I will say this, your absolutely right about his courage, he really is fearless, because what does he have to fear? What he sought to protect his whole life, what was what mattered to him his family, that's gone. Physical pain is nothing to him, he constantly provokes people, and you're right you can't be such a menace without such courage. The gamble's he's taken and the trust he has in himself at every step even despite his previous mishaps and self blame, it is remarkable how he keeps going and it's not something we directly think about alot.
@huisclothes: well said, well said, that's very true about his decision to release Lorelei back, I will say that I think Jane has it in his head that he can turn Lorelei, he said in the opener this year he knew he could turn Lorelei that was the focus of everything and I don't think he just exaggerated it to persuade Lisbon to let him do his thing. The idea of him doing what's always rational is an interesting one. You have situations like last year when he tortured a vicitm and subsequently got fired to be part of his masterplan(or was it, was he just taking his impulse too far or did he plan it just that way) where the idea of what is rationale is put to question(and its meant to be a question, one that we ponder deeply). At the same time you also have had situations where he has gone too far in the early seasons, where I'm not sure in hindsight he'd even think it was rational. So I'm not sure what to think, I think the idea behind the rationale of what he does, how he perceives it a
Trying to guess where the writers are going is not easy and probably all wrong. Red John will surely be disposed of one way or another, but a pathetic ending best suits this pathetic spewer of philosophical claptrap. The predator will become the prey (as in those PBS nature shows Jane watches). Jane will kill RJ or bring about his death somehow - perhaps manipulate him into killing himself). Perhaps Jane will be convicted of murder this time and end up going to prison. Why not? He seemed totally happy with that prospect after killing Carter. He's actually always enjoyed being in prison. As for Lisbon, why does she wear a cross around her neck in every single episode? It's a religious symbol of sacrifice. Does that foreshadow some sacrificial action by her? I think it has to. How serious remains to be seen. Let's hope the next episode or two will give us more to work with.
@b&w&r. patrick is used to losing when it comes to red john. i don't know that he believes lorelei will turn on red john. he hopes so. he always maximizes his chances of getting closer. he caught her, he lost her, he got her back, he sent her away. i think sending her away, was the smartest and the most powerful stance he could take in that situation. as is so often the case with him, all the choices on the menu that day sucked, but he picked the best one. it doesn't have to work, it just has to be his best option in pursuing his rational self-interest. he's not afraid of looking foolish or being wrong. he does the best he can with the hand he's dealt. we know he's not physically brave but he puts himself in jeopardy in hopes of reaching his goal. he gets brutalized and gets up again. i find that thrilling.
when i say sexual component to rj's love for jane, i don't necessarily mean conscious. or something he would act on overtly. but if i were red john's therapist, that would sure be in my notes. i look at lorelei's liason with patrick as a violation of patrick by red john. i'm sure red john got every single detail of that night from lorelei. as i've said before, carnal knowledge without consent. the law has a word for that.
whatever it may be, red john seems hooked on what patrick gives him. red john's a showman. how intoxicating it must be to capture the complete attention of an audience like patrick (no mean showman himself). red john's followers espouse some post-apocalyptic new age-y bunk about pain and dark and light and visualize spouts some equally incoherent blather, i trust patrick, the empiricist, the logician, and yes, the atheist to be a hard sell.
Now this idea of praying on pain is very common and very general, there alot of loose ends to tie and we might find its not something we thought it was, but that might also connect to sexual desires. I'm not sure if RJ is sexually attracted to Jane, but the more I think about it your right in a way that there is a sexual component(that manipulation I talked about earlier and the sexual component have some overlap), either of RJ being attracted to so many women or attracted to a certain type in a certain way and his followers also sharing or adapting those characteristics(O'Laughlin had a dark love with Van Pelt, I think in his mind he loved her with his qualifications, but those qualifications clearly meant betraying her and willing to kill her when necessary).
only suggest that if Lorelei found RJ killed her sister, he believes she'll turn on RJ. Now, Jane doesn't know for sure and the show will have some tricks up its sleeve, but I think it's the idea of pain that's what binds all of Red John's friends together. He is the master of praying on the vulnerable at the exact moment and living a different style of life, one he sees as far more noble and with far different rules, and that intrigues his followers. One of those main perspectives could be what he got across in Tyger Tyger, that you can't have light without darkness, life without death, and it relates to what O'Laughlin told Van Pelt, to see the truth you have to open your eyes the whole way, that you knew I had a bad streak that intrigued you.And it's that bad streak in people perhaps that Red John is able to elicit them to act on in ways they never saw as imaginable and giving them a far differnet perspective.
That's the key with Red John, everything is about manipulation, controlling everything, even as Lorelei said, he's so manipulative and I think Red John might be aware that Jane is just like this (as Lorelei openly said) and that might add more intrigue and be the reason he wanted him as his disciple and told him imagine the life we could leave last season. So I'm not sure if it's sexual, it's more the idea of controlling every part of a man's life who has dedicated that life to killing you and in the process finding out that man is just like you(red john). This idea you brought up of "I kill who you love so you love me" is interesting and there could definitely be something to that but the thing is Lorelei doesn't believe Red John killed her sister. So that's not the reason for her joining his group, as Jane said, Red John manipulated her, prayed on her pain and took her under wing. The fact that Jane is trying to turn Lorelei by using the RJ killing her sister as his main argument onl
@huisclothes it sounds like we agree on much of what we've said, we're just saying it in different ways. I will say in that strawberries and cream bomb scene they still would have been in huge risk had he left and not stayed, he knew he could crack Gupta, and Gupta really wasn't any kind of deep criminal, he was easy to deceive and just a pawn in Red John's game. It's not like Jane risked his own life to save Lisbon by staying, his life was at risk regardless. As for homoerotic, I don't know if there's anything sexual there, but Red John clearly is obsessed with Jane. He's obsessed with a man who made it his life goal to end him and Red John believes he can deceive him whenever he wants and make his life hell in the process. Like Timothy Carter said in the finale two years ago, I'm not sure RJ gets anything out of killing anymore, that either doesn't satisfy his urges and cravings or it doesn't satisfy his need for manipulation.
cont'd from below. @b&w&r. patrick has said "if red john wants me, he knows where to find me. i can't worry about that." red john doesn't want patrick dead, red john wants patrick. as a disciple. or a catatonic he's created. as i've said previously, i think there's a strong homoerotic component to red john's fascination with jane. it would be a mindblower if that came out (no pun intended). it'd be interesting if many members of red john's coterie turn out to have a loved one killed by red john. that's his thing: "i kill what you love and you love me." i agree that red john focusing on lisbon would be a logical way for things to end up. red john trying to kill the new woman in patrick's life (romantic or platonic) and patrick saving her by killing red john would bring things to an emotionally satisfying end. but please don't let patrick die doing it. that would be emotionally unsatisfying. unbearably so.
cont'd from below. was patrick's six-month detour to vegas hard on lisbon and the team? yes. it was harder on patrick. still he wasn't sacrificing himself. he was doing what he wanted to do to pursue his rational self-interest. he was dangling himself as bait for red john, staying away from the team until he had a plan that a law enforcement team could reasonably execute. they made a point of saying they were doing it for lisbon. that was their choice. she wasn't about to bust them down to a neighborhood beat. would he sacrifice himself for lisbon? he insisted on staying with her when gupta strapped a bomb to her. he took over and maximized their chances of survival. he was charming afterward when he said it was just his male pride that kept him there. we've seen patrick's male pride allow him to run wee-wee-wee-wee all the way home from scary situations. pride had nothing to do with this. contd above
@ bw&r this feels like the british parliament. i love the way you think. it may be that i just have a different sense of life but i don't think life or the mentalist is about sacrifices. jane hasn't sacrificed himself (or anyone) in order to pursue red john. he knows himself and it's the path he chooses to pursue in order to be true to himself. will he sacrifice cho, say? 'course not. no one on the team. has he put the team in jeopardy? they're officers of the law and on at least two occasions, in strawberries and cream and in crimson hat, were offered the chance to get off the bus. jane drew back from the team when he told lisbon that "people who get close to me, bad things happen to them." her reply was, "it's our job to be in harm's way." it was their case before patrick worked for the cbi and they weren't having any luck with it. cont'd
but his desire to manipulate Jane through directly killing Lisbon himself is also at play. He has tried to kill Lisbon in the past, we'll see what happens here, inevitably it'll be a conflict for him of how to gain control over Jane. As Jane said last year, the reason Red John didn't go after Jane last year was it would have been too easy. He wanted to manipulate him directly by working with him, hence Lorelei and Lorelei poking at his brain in the opener. Let's see how his approach changes because at some pt his obsession to manipulating Jane by hurting him directly will creep up.
I don't think there's much else he'd even consider not sacrificing if it directly meant Red John. Last thing I guess while we're on this subject the other thing that kind of is inevitable and I'm surprised it hasn't really been broached yet either is Red John coming after Lisbon. We know he knows that Jane at least cares alot about Lisbon and to Red John he thinks Jane cares a little more via what Lorelei said in the opener(although part of that was also her trying to provoke him). We know Red John has tried to entice Jane to kill Lisbon, to make a sacrifice. We know Red John's accomplices have tried killing Lisbon twice(season 1 finale and season 3 finale with O'Laughlin). We'll see what Red John does, but clearly his obsession with Jane and trying to understand him vs his desire to hurt him is at play. He wants Jane to be his disciple and make a sacrifice and commit an act he would by killing Lisbon and see life from his perspective and manipulate Jane through working with him, but h
into Red Johns arms. There are two times Jane has legitimately thought he'd get RJ. In season 3 finale, it meant taking risks and putting the team in danger(although he was scared for Lisbon). Then last year's finale meant hurting Lisbon and those in the CBI by walking out for 6 months without anybody knowing. We know Jane will make any sacrifice for RJ and doesn't care about putting people in trouble to solve cases on a weekly basis. In the season 1 finale before he shot RJ's friend he told Lisbon that it would have been worth him dying if they could have gotten Red John. So the question then becomes, if he's willing to sacrifice himself for RJ, would he for Lisbon? It's complicated, and even through all that's happened through 4+seasons, there's still not a ton to go off of to base that decision, but I'm not sold the answer would be no. Maybe it would maybe it wouldn't, but I've never bought the Jane-Lisbon relationship romance type dynamic as much as others and I don't think there's
I'm not sure revenge is analogous to what @huisclothes seems to be describing where you are building up credit for lack of a better term, that you make sacrifices for years so you finally build up a chance to get revenge. I'm not sure if that's what you want but don't actually believe or if you believe that, but I think the show has shown revenge always has sacrifices. Sacrifices don't end, there are never no consequences. There's always a price to pay. I'm also not 100% sure if push comes to shove and he's in a position where Red John is there to be had, that he wouldn't be willing to make sacrifices to those he has in the past that matter like Lisbon. The thing people forget about in the season 1 finale when he shot Red John's friend to save Lisbon was he was doubting the use of the accomplice even before he had to shoot him with Lisbon. Lisbon was saying he would lead them to RJ but Jane wasn't really buying. Remember, Lorelei being found hasn't exactly lead to him walking right int
Lisbon's troubles are just beginning. This is probably why she is going to question her career. There is no way they can just close the books on volker. I'm woundering if Jane will pull her out of the fire. My guess is Bertram will be involved in this and Volker will have thing to do with it.I hope we won't have to wait a couple of episodes to find out how last weeks episode will play out. I think it's an interesting twist that the writer's are devoting so many episodes to one story line. Now they have created a story within a story within a story that connects. I must admit that this season is the best one so far!
The Volker arc has renewed my interest in the series.
i actually said i did not want jane to complete his hero's journey. not that screenwriting 101 stuff. patrick has clearly shown he is not willing to throw lisbon under a bus and i suspect there are other values he wouldn't sacrifice for the sake of getting red john. lorelei, for example. not likely he would let her get hurt. the faux developmentally disabled reader of moby dick described revenge as redemptive. and max winter told patrick all the years of planning and waiting were worth it. of course, patrick's hallucination would demonstrate doubt about his pursuit of red john, lust for lisbon, and longing for his daughter. he's smart. he re-evaluates the contents of his brain constantly. i don't think he has blinders on and i hope he doesn't have some epiphany about revenge. i don't want him to sacrifice. he already gave at the office. patrick has earned this. any sacrifice he has to make to get it would be unearned.
I agree with what everyone says about this episode losing it the final half.
I thought the same thing, this guy is the most clever villain of all and suddenly he kicks a door in, knocks things over and leaves his fingerprint all over? Then seriously he is going to snatch a kid at the Zoo? That is so amateur.
NO way this guy would operate like that, given what the writers told us about him. I wonder what happened? It seems like they just ran out of juice and slapped a totally cliche 2nd rate ending on the show. Very disappointing.
This season feels strange. It is much quieter somehow. The energy and jokes and overall tone is very different. It is odd to see Jane so quiet, and he is giving off a very low key energy. I feel like I am not watching the same show.
Volker was a great villain. I really hated him. I feel like it wrapped up too fast and too neat. Though I suspect we have more to come since Brenda is involved and that was a surprise and bummer too.
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